Thanks for your explanations, especially because we disagree respectfully. I value your effort, enthusiasm and details. Debates on disagreements is why I love forums like this; I’ll leave once they become echo chambers into one or the other direction. I noted a bit of a shift one way since I joined, so hoping to bring back some balance to seek more truth, even when it may hurt and go against individual hopes.

You mentioned: “I take such a hard line on China, specifically, because that right, the right to think about your situation and the world around you, and take action to improve it, is precisely the most important right denied to people from the PRC in the most fundamental way (politically).”

There’s (3rd party) evidence the majority of Chinese support their current system, besides that many who have and live in China (including my own) anecdotal evidence points to that and that a majority has the rights you describe, just not in the same electoral democratic type of way...even though some elections are possible (1mio villages). We’re all fine working for ‘authorian’ companies, where you also don’t have electoral democracy but rather a challenge to participate and work your way up in a meritocratic way. Why is China’s model that hard to respect, even though we may not want to emulate it (I recommend The China Model, Daniel A Bell)?

Where we disagree is that I believe some democratic values as in 1 person 1 vote, freedom of speech, should not be on the same level than other universal values like Human Rights. The former is suffering even in the West, and we currently don’t have good answers to the increasing polarization and level of crazy (Tea Party, QAnon, what’s in 5 years from now?), how to deal with social media echo chambers. Also, Trump almost won again.

It’s also not believable enough, given Western powers hold alliances to authorian regimes elsewhere for various unilateral reasons eg US with Saudi Arabia, while Germany can’t secure an additional oil supply to their neighboring Russia and must instead get fracked gas shipped half way across the world? Can’t we still get fracking that if really needed?

I don’t believe the argument that China needs to be contained due to a lack of democratic values is an honest motivation as a whole - for you personally it may of course, I’m not questioning, but on a geopolitical level; I don’t buy it.

Also historically it’s wrong. We can’t tell a culture like China how to govern itself, especially not after imperialism happened. And that’s where I’m wondering about the inner missionary drive/zeal of some in the West to convince others to adopt their ways. Is this a cultural artifact Westerners have had centuries ago eg with Christianity? I don’t find China has much of that type of history hence the bet is they won’t have it even with increasing power.

What is there to worry about then for the West? Just a hardcore competitor in the market place? Eventually; maybe not anytime soon, that may become easier? https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/3116109/young-employees-rebel-against-chinese-work-ethic-being-lazy-refusing?utm_source=Whatsapp&utm_medium=share_widget&utm_campaign=3116109 ;)

There’s other aspects you mention above but I think I’ve already written too much for now (sorry). In short: I don’t agree HK has been reported from and responded to fairly by Western media and politicians; Everything I’ve read is too simplistic and one-sided. I have a hunch that happens on other topics I have less ability trying to verify myself. So, I’m longing for the West to focus on what really, truly matters, and what is true by hard evidence over the impression we’re all against China - even the CCP (100mio Chinese). The Politico article moved a bit - focus on Xi, not CCP.

IP theft; yes, everyone please protect yourself and call it out etc, increasingly also Chinese innovators. This is not a surprise in that stage of development. In the 1770s, when Richard Arkwright from Cromford, UK created the first ever modern factory (with other people’s unattributed ideas), it didn’t take long for industrial spies to steal, including spies from Germany. One of the beneficiaries in Ratingen, Germany named his own illegal replica ‘Cromford’.