How to speak up when your manager checks out, your boss has a bad idea, or you’re scared of getting “mom zoned.”
Canceled 1:1s, unrecognized accomplishments, meetings that drag on for eternity…oh my. When you have a conflict with your manager, it can feel incredibly risky to speak up. But having the courage to broach a difficult topic can be the first step toward real change. In this episode, Sara and Jen talk self-advocacy: how to identify your needs, outline desired outcomes—and actually START the conversation!
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Jen Dionisio 0:00 Before you let anyone else define your identity, take a turn at defining it for yourself.
Jen Dionisio 0:26 Hey, Sara, how was France?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:28 Oh my gosh, Jen. I had so many picnics. So many delightful picnics with so many cheeses.
Jen Dionisio 0:34 Oh, how much bread did you consume?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:37 I mean, I think I'm literally made out of bread, cheese, and wine at this point, but...
Jen Dionisio 0:40 Dreamy.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:41 Getting back to everyday life has been good, though.
Jen Dionisio 0:43 Well, we got a lot to cover today. So should we jump into it?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:47 Let's do it. Hey, everyone. This is Per My Last Email, the show about what to do when work gets weird. I'm Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
Jen Dionisio 0:55 And I'm Jen, Dionisio. So, Sara, what kind of weird are we talking about today?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:00 Okay, today's topic is one I am really excited to specifically hear your take on, because it is about how to speak up to your manager about something uncomfortable or difficult.
Jen Dionisio 1:12 Yeah, that's a skill everyone needs.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:15 You know, the reason I'm really excited to hear your take on it is that I know you've really seen both sides of this issue. Like we've talked about how maybe you've been the employee who isn't so good at speaking up.
Jen Dionisio 1:25 It me.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 1:26 Yeah. And you've been the manager who has really tried to create spaces where people can speak up. So what I'm hoping today we can do is help some of our dilemma writers speak up effectively, and maybe also give some support to the managers out there listening who want to create environments where it's not so hard for people.
Jen Dionisio 1:45 Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the managers, too and not just the employees, because all of these are based on the relationships between those two people. And I've seen a lot of situations where you've got really well-intentioned people on both sides, but they just don't know how to communicate or trust each other. So hopefully, we can talk to our listeners about how to make these situations a little easier for everyone that's involved.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:14 And I will say most of the letter writers we get are from people who are more in the employee perspective trying to speak up to the boss. I wish we got more questions from managers that were like, "How do I make it easier for people?" Until that though, I think it'd be helpful to just sort of like answer some of that anyway, because I know that there are some listeners out there who are in leadership roles. And I think some of this will be really useful for them.
Jen Dionisio 2:36 Yeah, managers listen up.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:42 Okay, so Jen, are you ready to help some people?
Jen Dionisio 2:44 Let's do it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 2:45 Okay, so our first question comes from a success manager working in tech, and we're going to call them BA.
BA 2:52 I had been in my role for only six months before going on a four month maternity leave with the birth of my first child. When I returned to work, I was nervous. But I really appreciate my manager and team and was feeling motivated to continue ramping and growing in my role. One of the first emails I saw was one from my manager to our team at the end of the year thanking each person for specific contributions to the team, recognizing both personal and professional accomplishments.
He included me even though I was on leave at the time, which I thought was so sweet. But all it said next to my name was "became a mom." And I immediately felt sad, disappointed, and conflicted. Of course, I had experienced a massive shift in my life, and I was glad for that acknowledgement. But what about the six months of work before I'd gone on leave? Hadn't I contributed to the team culture and metrics? Had they forgotten me? Would I only be seen as a mom moving forward? How do I navigate wanting to be seen and respected as the fully contributing valuable team member that I am and as a new parent who's bouncing new responsibilities, perspectives, etc.?
I want to be seen for both. When I type that out, I think, "Of course, you can be respected as both of those things." But on the other hand, it's not so easy.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 4:05 Okay, so Jen, where would you start with BA? Oh, and by the way, that stands for "Both/And." How might they navigate both this sort of identity shift they're going through and talk with their boss about their concerns?
Jen Dionisio 4:18 Yeah, this is a meaty one. I know so many new moms who are really feeling that shift in what their work identity is once they've given birth and come back from leave. And so it makes total sense what BA is kind of juggling. You know, they've gone through a big life change, things are different, they're different. And in an ideal world, you know, that identity shift has some intention and choice behind it based on what BA needs. But what I'm hearing instead is that they're feeling a little like this identity shift is being assigned to them instead of it being something that they're actively choosing.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:00 Mmm. Yeah, gosh, anytime something feels like it's assigned to you or like happening to you, that tends to really trigger some feelings for people.
Jen Dionisio 5:10 And I imagine it's kind of making it harder for BA to determine what recognition they need as a mom. And you know, as badass success manager, too.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 5:20 Yeah. Okay, so where might BA start here?
Jen Dionisio 5:23 So my advice is always, surprise, to go inward before looking outward. So BA, what do you wish had been on that list of accomplishments? What are the things that you were proud of doing before you went out on leave? And what are you proud of doing since you came back? You know, I really get the sense that some part of you, maybe an inner critic, maybe some other voice, is second guessing that you're as valuable or productive as you were before having your baby.
And I really want you to have some facts to fight back against that criticism if it's coming from your own brain. And then I'd also tell BA, ask yourself, what has changed? How are you different now? Or how do you want to be different? If you knew that you wouldn't have to worry about your colleagues judging you or thinking any of these, like, negative thoughts about you, like, that you're not as productive, or that you're not as engaged, or that you're not as on top of things, what are your non-negotiables for this new stage in your life as both a mom and an employee?
Maybe now you're a person who doesn't intend to work on weekends like you used to, or you know, you're really going to be firm about not checking your emails, after five. Maybe there's some part of your work that feels a little more meaningful to you, or that you're more aware that you'd like to delegate out, because it's the thing that is hard to keep up on when you've had a really sleepless night. I guess all that is really just to say, like, before you let anyone else define your identity, take a turn at defining it for yourself.
From there, you could decide how you want to make that known to your boss and your teammates. Maybe that looks like sharing your wins, your accomplishments, things you're doing in the team chat, or really being a little bolder, and, like, forwarding those emails that you get that say what a good job you've done, or how much people appreciate you directly to your boss so they're in the loop.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 7:32 Oh, my gosh, that's such a power move. But also like, that is some pretty scary self-advocacy. You know, my experience is that a lot of people, and I would say particularly women, tend to feel uncomfortable with that level of self-advocacy. And at the same time, I also think that when we don't self-advocate, it's actually really hard for us to get our needs met.
Jen Dionisio 7:54 Yeah. And, like, thinking about that manager perspective, one of my direct reports that I worked with recently, she was so good at doing that. I mean, she had only been at the company for like under a year. And anytime someone sent her a chat or an email, she would forward it to me. And the joke was always that I would immediately forward it on to my boss. So it's creating this sort of circle where everybody knows the nice things that people are saying about each other, and they don't have to scramble at the end to, like, figure out what to praise her for, you know, when it came to, like, review cycle time.
So that said, BA, if you're feeling any hesitation about speaking up for yourself in that way, or, like, championing the things that other people are saying about you, please be bold. I think there are a lot of managers who would appreciate that. And knowing that you're also in a new role, your colleagues may not know you super well yet. Your boss may not know you super well yet. And these sorts of bits of information are the things that are going to let them know what's valuable about you and get to know you better.
So another option, if you don't want to do this sort of indirect advocacy, is having a more direct conversation with your manager about how you're feeling and what your concerns are. You know, you said prior to your mat leave that you had a really good relationship with your manager. And that gives me hope that they'd be responsive to some of these worries you have. So let's start with the scariest option, right? Tell them how that year end review made you feel and what support or new behaviors you'd like them to show to calm those fears down for you.
And look, in an ideal world, your manager will completely understand your perspective and make tons of effort to kind of champion your successes and what you're doing and give you lots of reassurance that there will be no negative repercussions for any accommodations you need. That said, even having a caring boss doesn't mean that they aren't subconsciously influenced by a lot of the biases and assumptions people make about new moms. And I don't want to downplay it. That can have serious impacts on your compensation, your advancement, and the energy you have to put into this job.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:24 Ooh. Yeah. You know, Jen, you mentioned compensation. And that reminds me of something. Have you heard about the "motherhood penalty" and the "fatherhood premium?"
Jen Dionisio 10:34 I can guess where this is going. So tell us more.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 10:37 Okay, so I knew a little bit about this. And when I saw this question, I was like, "Let me look this up." I did a little digging. And the National Women's Law Center has found that on average, moms working full time earn just 74 cents for every dollar paid to a dad in the US. So that's even a larger wage gap than between women and men generally. That what happens is that, like, when you become a parent, for moms, your earnings tend to go down. And for dads, they tend to go up.
And, and this is not going to surprise you, the pay gap is of course worse for moms of color. So Black, Native American and Latina moms earn 52 cents, 49 cents, and 47 cents, respectively for every dollar paid to white dads. White, non-Hispanic moms are at 71 cents, Asian American moms 90 cents for every dollar. So what happens is that fatherhood boosts men's earnings. So dads working full time made $65,000 in 2020, compared to $56,000 for men overall. But that is just not true for moms. And we'll put a link to all this in the show notes.
But I think what this really speaks to is that we do have these very different beliefs and expectations about what it means to be a parent, depending on the gender of the person who is a parent. And I don't know if there's any data for non-binary parents, because I suspect that most of this is pretty gendered, but so much of this really seems to align with how you are perceived in the workplace. So like, if you were perceived femme, if you're the birthing parent, you're gonna fall into that moms group, even if you don't quite identify that way.
Jen Dionisio 12:14 Those pay rates are really shocking.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:17 Yeah, well, okay. The other thing is, there's more. It's not just about money. So I looked into this; there are a bunch of studies that kind of look at the way we think about and treat parents at work. And there's a Harvard study, for example, that found that "describing a consultant as a mother leads evaluators to rate her as less competent than when she is described as not having children." And another good quote here, good quote, is good in some ways: "visibly pregnant women managers are judged as less committed to their jobs, less dependable, and less authoritative."
Jen Dionisio 12:49 Great.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:50 Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna keep piling it on though.
Jen Dionisio 12:53 There's more?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 12:54 So one of the things that really exacerbated this, of course, was the pandemic, right? Like, we had so many parents who were suddenly trying to work while they had kids at home. And I think, anecdotally, a lot of us know that a lot of that burden fell on moms. And statistically, that's also true. So there was a 2020 report on women in the workplace by McKinsey and Lean In, and I have opinions about both of those entities, but I'm gonna set them aside for now. And what they did as they surveyed more than 300 companies and more than 40,000 employees in professional jobs.
And what they found was, here's another quote, "not only are mothers doing way more at home than fathers during the pandemic, but mothers are also more than twice as likely as fathers to worry that their performance is being judged negatively because of their caregiving responsibilities."
Jen Dionisio 13:38 Okay, so this sounds like a lot of proof that even lovely, well-meaning bosses can easily fall prey to deeply held biases against moms: that they're not as serious about their work, that they're distracted, that they're not ready for more responsibility, that their priorities are elsewhere. Great.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 13:59 We still need that oof foghorn that I think we talked about a few episodes ago.
Jen Dionisio 14:04 You can't all see me shaking my head so hard.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 14:08 And of course, like, none of this is surprising, I mean, right? It kind of affirms things that I think we know. And that if you've been thinking about like equity at work, if you're thinking about feminist issues for more than a hot second, you kind of come to some of these things. But laying them all out together, it really paints this picture. And I just want to note that this is such a different picture than my actual lived experience working with moms.
Because in my experience, when I've worked with moms, I've thought they were great for office culture, because they tend to get in, get things done, and leave. And you know, what I think we should all be able to do at work is get in, get things done, and leave. I really appreciate that they have somewhere to be, and I appreciate that it tends to lead to workplaces where there's a little bit greater sense of focus, and where there's a greater sense of prioritization because there's sort of a forced prioritization. Because they're not going to work until 9pm, or whatever, right?
The other thing is, I think when you have a workplace that has parents, and particularly moms, there is a greater sense of balance, or at least acknowledgement that life exists outside of the office. And I think that that should be something that everybody can have. You shouldn't have a penalty if you have kids to pick up. But also people without kids have other stuff happening in their lives, and you don't know what kind of caregiving they might be doing too in different ways.
And I just think that that makes more room for everyone. And if I had to pick between an office that had lots of moms in it, and an office that was all child-free, I would absolutely pick the office with lots of moms.
Jen Dionisio 15:43 I am a child-free person. And I know, like, I have benefited so much from the work boundaries of moms and parents that I've worked with. In my last job, the a 3pm to 5pm child pick up hours are something that on basically every project, at least one or two people needed to kind of stick to, and those hours tended to be, like, the only time that I had to get my heads down work done. And so thank you, moms. That's the only reason I've been able to be successful.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:14 And you know, I think it's important to note that there are new parents who are still really ambitious about their work, who still have all these other goals professionally. There are also new parents who really don't want to add more responsibility at work, and, like, that's fine. Both are fine. I think the big problem is, of course, this cultural bias that leads to these assumptions. And because we've already made an assumption, like, we've already written a story about how, "Oh, she's not serious about her career anymore," or whatever, then that prevents us from having honest conversations with the actual individual humans in our lives about what they want or what they need.
Jen Dionisio 16:50 Wait, Sara, do you mean not all moms have exactly the same feelings about work?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 16:55 Moms: They are not a monolith. You heard it here first. Big news. Okay, so Jen, what about for the managers out there who are listening and who are thinking, "Yeah, I want to be more respectful and inclusive to the parents on my team," what would you say to them?
Jen Dionisio 17:11 Well, since most of our listeners are designers, let's first practice what we preach and start with empathy. Like I said, I don't have any lived experience being a parent or a caretaker. But I do think I was a pretty great manager to the parents on my team, and that's because I really tried to understand and ask what they need, you know, especially those parents that had the primary childcare duties, or were single parents where all the work was falling on them. So I always advise going straight to the source, because otherwise, those stories get created without any real data to back them up.
So managers, ask your team members what they need. Look, there's a chance that you may not get the whole truth out of your direct reports because think of all that research that Sara shared. No matter how much you think you've created a safe space for your team, you can't actually guarantee that they fully trust that their honesty won't be penalized, that by asking for a little bit of flexibility, that you're not thinking in the back of your head, "They're really dropping the ball. I knew this was gonna happen."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:22 "They're just not dedicated anymore."
Jen Dionisio 18:25 Yeah. Gross.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 18:26 Ugh. Yeah.
Jen Dionisio 18:26 And so okay, you can back that up with other kinds of research, right? Talk to your peers with kids about what they struggle with at work. If they're at the same level as you, that sort of power differential is minimized a bit so that they are more likely to be honest and forthright with you. And by doing that with people in your own company, you're actually more likely to get a sense of the unique challenges of the org you're in. Because there are lots of things that people may need at work, and your business might be really great at providing some of them and really awful at providing the rest.
So speaking of that, get clear on what support your organization offers your employees. Flexible work schedules and remote options are lifesavers for parents. So if your company doesn't officially offer those benefits, you still have a team where you can set norms that are more parent friendly. And while you're looking at those team norms, take a little time to look at how yours may be supporting new parents or completely diminishing them. If your team's view of success or, like, how people are measured is how hard they're hustling, or overworking, or charging through, maybe it's time to revisit that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 19:49 Oh my gosh, it's time to revisit that for everybody. If I never hear the word "hustle" again, I will be happy.
Jen Dionisio 19:56 Yeah. I mean, that's another example of something you may do to accommodate new moms and new parents that also has great benefits for the rest of us, too. And I guess the last thing, Sara, that I would want to tell this manager or managers in a similar situation is please don't listen to this dilemma and decide to swing too far in the opposite direction. It's good to care about people's lives outside of work. It's okay to ask about somebody's kids and family, just like it is absolutely okay for them to choose if they share and what they share with you.
But maybe keep that to the first 5-10 minutes of your one-on-one, and then jump into the work so that, you know the people on your team are feeling like they're being seen for both parts of those identities and not just one. There's no perfect formula, but being curious and internalizing feedback rarely steers a manager wrong.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 20:57 Put that on a t-shirt.
Jen Dionisio 20:58 Yeah, I'd wear that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:04 Okay, Jen, so are you ready for a second question?
Jen Dionisio 21:07 Absolutely.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 21:08 Okay, let's roll it.
OMO 21:09 My new manager is checked out. I'm a brand-new content designer and the first at my org. I was so excited to get my hands on our confusing, neglected, inconsistent, jargony interface content after years of working on other teams and having no access or pull. My manager and I are both learning the function of my role together, but I'm realizing I'm on my own.
After two weeks of weekly one-on-ones, she moved our meeting cadence to every other week because she was busy and "it was clear I didn't really need her that much." She then began moving or canceling every single one-on-one with a note that said, "Thanks for understanding," or, "It's so nice that I know you get this," which made me feel like if I protested in any way, I wasn't actually that understanding. I was scheduled to give my first ever design review and the company's first ever design review that involves content, and it had been on the calendar for two months.
My manager decided at the last minute to take the week off before the review, but told me she'd be available by text if I needed her. I definitely needed her. But who wants to bug their manager on their time off? I don't want to be part of a culture where I'm pinged on my time off, so no thanks. I realized I need to speak up and advocate for myself more, but I'm feeling burnt out and so discouraged that I'm not even sure I have the spoons or the interest. How do I advocate for myself and my colleagues, set better boundaries, and differentiate between what's mine to own and what's a them problem?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 22:41 Okay, so Jen, how are we gonna help this person who is feeling so alone right now?
Jen Dionisio 22:46 Great question. Okay, first, let's call them OMO for "On My Own." So OMO, I'm so sorry that what sounds like was an incredible and exciting opportunity has just devolved into burnout city. What I'm hearing is that what's good for your boss isn't very good for you and that your being understanding of what your unpredictable boss is doing and feeling has come at a real cost to you. But the good news is, this is a new relationship.
So there are some things you can try that might help you reset it in a way that works for both of you. But before we do that, OMO, again, let's look inside. Because I get a sense that, like me, you may be a people-pleaser at heart. People-pleasing, essentially, is the practice of prioritizing the needs of other people instead of our own. It is driven by a desire to be liked and accepted. And the drivers of that live deep, deep, deep down in our histories and early experiences.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 24:04 Yeah, oh gosh, I think about people-pleasing so much as just safety seeking, right? It's like a way to be safe. And it's a human need that we all have. But when we people-please as a way to feel safe, what ends up happening is, like, we end up constantly appeasing, prioritizing, and serving others, even when it is actively hurting us to do so. And I think that's a really important distinction because it's come up for me when I've talked to people about people-pleasing, where they're like, "Well, what's wrong with being helpful?" or, "What's wrong with being there for other people?" And the answer is like nothing.
But if you feel like it is so important to appease others and prioritize others over yourself, and it is hurting you to do so, then that's really important to look at because now you are no longer just doing it out of kindness, you're not doing it out of the goodness in your heart, you're doing it in almost like a compulsive way where it's like "I don't know any other way to be." And that I think is really worth kind of unpacking a bit.
Jen Dionisio 25:04 Thanks for pointing that out. Because it is so true. Like, the distinction is, you are prioritizing other people, you're taking care of other people, you're pleasing other people, but not yourself.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:16 Right.
Jen Dionisio 25:16 And there are ways that everyone can get their needs met, but nobody wins. If you're not okay in what you're giving up.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 25:25 And it's just not sustainable. You know, like, nobody can live that way indefinitely. And the cost is really high over time.
Jen Dionisio 25:30 Yeah. So, OMO, I recommend checking in with yourself to see if any of these typical people-pleasing behaviors may be popping up in how you're interacting with your boss. Do you have trouble saying no? Do you worry about what she's going through and what her needs are? Do you feel any guilt in being upset with her? Have you kind of avoided any conflict with her, or when an opportunity to speak up has come, have you defaulted to appeasing them instead?
I mean, OMO, even if you're not usually a people-pleaser, it still makes absolute sense if you're afraid to speak up. You're in a vulnerable spot right now. You said you're a new content designer, and you said you're the first content designer in the company. And I imagine there's a lot of pressure to prove yourself and to represent the field overall. Maybe there is internal pressure and external pressure that you're feeling right now.
But look, you want to be successful. And I assume your boss wants you to be successful too. And for that to happen, your needs do have to be met. And what I'm hearing in you is a need for support, and for guidance, and maybe even a little bit of a need for connection. Unfortunately, your manager does not seem to be picking up on this. So you're gonna have to communicate those needs to them.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 27:08 Aah, no. This is so crucial. But that's also really scary, right? Like, it's so scary to tell your manager that things aren't working or that you need more from them. Since we talked about people-pleasing and accommodating as, like, safety-seeking behaviors, how might OMO find some ways to feel safe and grounded in their new role so that they can feel comfortable enough to say something?
Jen Dionisio 27:34 Yeah, it sounds like OMO doesn't have any experience seeing their boss react to pushback yet, or at least it wasn't mentioned in their message. So I'm gonna assume that they don't actually know what to expect. And I want to remind OMO that there is a whole spectrum of responses that you're likely to see that fall somewhere between the extremes of like, you tell your boss how you've been feeling and they profusely apologize and really change everything that they've been doing. And the other extreme, which is your boss fires you for being high maintenance.
Again, like, not knowing which of these reactions or what alternative reaction you're gonna get is really scary. And to me, it sounds like maybe a safer place to start is looking at these one-on-one cancellations and reschedules because I would like to ask, like, what would it sound like to not accommodate these shifts, and instead, ask for what you want or what you need? Let's imagine your boss cancels your next one-on-one. There are a bunch of ways you could respond. I might say something like, "I'd really like your input on this presentation before I go any further. So can we please reschedule for this week?"
Or being a little more proactive about when you meet next, so looking at their calendar and saying, "I see we both have tomorrow at 3pm free. I'd like to reschedule instead of cancel." Or maybe getting a little more vulnerable to kind of appeal to your manager's sense of wanting and needing to guide you. It seems like your boss has a lot of trust in you. But you do need more. So you could say something like, "I'm still getting my footing, and I could use more regular support. Can we pick a new one-on-one time that's less likely to get canceled every week?"
So think about all these things I said. Again, reminder, I am a total people-pleaser. And none of these examples are at all unkind, or dramatic, or out of line. Really, they're just asking your manager to do their job, and what you hear from your manager in response is going to be really informative about how safe it is to share other needs with them. You know, my hope is that your boss will, at the very least be understanding, but more ideally spurred to action.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:18 Yeah, I really like the way that you're looking at this as using the one-on-one as kind of like a baby step into more self-advocacy because it's something concrete to focus on, and it can feel somewhat more neutral. It's not necessarily saying the manager is doing something wrong or bad, but more like, "Hey, I really could use this." And I hope that that gives them then a little bit more confidence to step up that self-advocacy as they go.
Jen Dionisio 30:46 Yeah.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 30:47 Now that said, I think we got to talk about OMO's manager here. So if you were working with them, what might you say to them here?
Jen Dionisio 30:54 So a part of me has a lot of compassion for this manager. And maybe I'm reading behind the lines or giving too much of the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like this boss might be super overwhelmed. Even that last minute vacation, like, was that because something cool and fun popped up? Or was that something like a burnout break? You know, maybe something really scary is happening at home, like, who knows?
And your boss may not want to share that kind of thing and put those worries or concerns on you. So that's the compassionate part of me. But I do have a much louder part that just kind of wants to wave my hands in front of your managers face and say, like, "Snap out of it." However overwhelmed you're feeling, you still owe your people the time and support they need.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 31:46 Yeah, you know, and I do get that this manager might be at the end of their rope. And they're human, and they deserve grace. But I think the big problem is that it sounds like their grace is coming at their employee's expense. And if they don't have the capacity to be a manager for their person, then how are they addressing that? And are they at least able to acknowledge, "Hey, I recognize I'm not giving you the support that you deserve because I don't have the capacity right now. It's not fair to you.
Let's brainstorm ways that we can make sure that you're okay because I know that I'm not gonna be able to give you enough." Like, that would be a more appropriate way to handle your very real needs as a manager who is overwhelmed without just dumping it onto your people. You know, the other thing is, I want to echo something you said earlier, Jen: as a manager, you cannot forget that there is a power difference. You can't assume that people are going to feel like they can be honest with you about their needs. And like, if you frame things in a way where they feel like they are putting you out by needing things, then they're going to pretend that they don't need things.
And so what happens is like, as a manager, you might be getting feedback that canceling the one-on-one is okay. And that is actually not at all true. And you won't know the difference if you're not paying a lot of attention.
Jen Dionisio 33:08 Right. So if you want your team to be honest, as the leader, you need to create a culture where people feel safe speaking up. You can't assume your team feels that way, even if you really, really, really care about them. So if you're not sure if that is what your dynamic is like with your people, these are some questions you might start asking yourself: When you share information or news do people ask many questions? Do you know the problems that your team is dealing with? How often do people share their mistakes with each other and you? When's the last time your team had, like, a heated debate and everyone was okay?
How often do you let people build on your ideas? Or do you hold them really tight? And when's the last time you heard pushback on one of your ideas? Have you ever been overruled? If you ask yourself those questions and get a lot of no's are not often's, it might be a sign that your team has a safety problem. And the good news is you can work on that together. And we'll put some resources in the show notes that can help you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 34:18 I think that this is a really important piece of it, just really recognizing that safety doesn't just happen. It's kind of like when you hear people say like, "Bring your whole self to work." And I'm like, "What are you doing to make it safe for me to bring my whole self to work? And why don't you go focus on that and stop telling me what to do?" Like, "Let me decide what to do here." And I think it's the same. We focus a lot on like, "Why aren't they sharing information?" and we think of that as like, "Well, they just need to be more confident, or they just need to do this, or they just need to do that," as opposed to looking inward and being like, "What am I doing that might make it hard for them to speak up?"
Jen Dionisio 34:54 Yeah, and even the nicest people can make it hard for people to speak up. I mean, it can be that people don't want to disappoint you. Or, you know, I know I've have really burned out managers, and I just didn't want to add more to their plates. Now, again, that's my problem. And I could have chosen to put my needs first there. But God did I wish in those moments that I had a boss that was more self-aware so that I didn't have to kind of carry that burden of taking care of them in addition to myself.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 35:27 Yeah. And, you know, I can freely admit that I have also been a boss who people were reluctant to share things with. And sometimes it was because yeah, they didn't want to disappoint me, or it was because I seemed like I already had the answers, so they didn't want to go against something I'd said. And that's been something that I've had to really reflect on a lot. And it's not easy, but I will say that being able to own that and recognize that the change isn't just going to happen, that you have to make it happen, and that you have to make one of your goals to be somebody who is easier to talk to about difficult things, is actually really powerful.
So I hope that this is something that people like OMO's boss can really kind of tap into here. And I'm wondering, do you have any parting words for OMO?
Jen Dionisio 36:16 Yeah. So I just want to remind you that wanting support from your boss is not being high maintenance, or selfish. And something that we didn't spend as much time on, but congratulations on entering the content design world. It hasn't been the smoothest start from what I'm hearing, but we know you'll get through it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:39 Yeah, you'll get through it.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 36:44 Okay, Jen, we have one last question today. This one comes to us from a listener named Ray who works in nonprofits. Here's what he asked:
Ray 36:53 The head of my org wants all of us on staff to contribute to some strategic planning meetings in the coming months. I'm very senior here and have seen this play out numerous times. We end up bogged down in inane discussions, the plans are unrealistic, and it's just a waste of time top to bottom. How do I cope? Do I suck it up by playing along and pretending like it matters? You know, this is my normal MO. Do I speak up? Or do I find some other way to derive value from this process?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 37:27 Okay, so if the usual MO of sucking it up and playing along were working for Ray, I don't think he'd be writing us. So it sounds like doing that has left Ray feeling pretty drained and maybe even a little resentful. So I'm really glad that he's interested in doing something differently, and I'd love to figure that out. What might we do differently here? What can he do to make this process feel more productive, or like to push back against it if it's not going to be productive?
Jen Dionisio 37:56 So Sara, I had a really visceral reaction to thinking about my experiences being in those kinds of meetings, because I too used to work in nonprofits. So Ray, bravo for maybe speaking up about something that I bet a lot of your colleagues are feeling, too. And what I'm hoping is that your seniority means that you have some extra sway.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 38:23 Yeah, you know, actually, seniority is like the first thing I flagged in Ray's question, because Ray even emphasized in their letter that they are very senior here. And so I think sometimes when we have power in our organizations, we're often still reluctant to use it. We are reluctant to speak up about things that should change, we're reluctant to like, say what needs to be said, because we sometimes are afraid that power could be taken away, or because we still kind of have leftover fear from earlier points in our career where we had less power.
And I think that that leads us to oftentimes kind of overestimate the risks of speaking up, when truly I think that when you're in a really senior position in your org, you are probably one of the best-suited people in the organization to speak up. You're one of maybe the safest people to speak up. And it might be time for you to think about how you want to use that power for good. So Jen, how might Ray assess some of this for himself?
Jen Dionisio 39:24 I'd suggest that Ray start by looking at his relationship with the head of his org. I was thinking to myself, like, what if anything, has suggested that they're not open to this kind of, like, constructive feedback on these meetings? Based on what Ray shared, it doesn't sound like anyone's critique these meetings openly yet. Maybe the boss has been thinking about this on their own too. But I do wonder if there have been other contexts outside of these, you know, strategic planning meetings where Ray has seen the head, take feedback poorly, or kind of dismiss people's feedback entirely.
So based on what you've experienced with this head, Ray, these are some things that I might suggest you start with: Ask yourself, what are you afraid is going to happen if you speak up about this? And how realistic is that fear? That goes back to kind of looking at what your interactions or your colleagues' interactions have been with that head to see what you might expect based on evidence instead of fear. And I'd also suggest kind of asking yourself, what's the impact on you and your colleagues for not speaking up. Sitting through these meetings, like maybe if they're one hour, once a year, okay, maybe that's not kind of worth using that political capital on.
But if this is something where these repeated meetings are creating a whole bunch of work, and rework, and stress for you and your team, the fear of what the reaction is going to be might not be nearly as serious as the kind of burnout, and drain, and frustration of sitting through these year after year. So what's more painful: speaking up or suffering through these soul-sucking meetings?
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 41:20 Yeah. You know, I love these kinds of comparisons because I think our brains are so quick to go to all of the like, reasons speaking up is scary. And then we kind of discount the cost of not speaking up. And so I think that that's a really good point that we need to put those things side by side and be like, "Sounds like not speaking up has not gone well for you, Ray." And so, okay, so let's assume that Ray gets this place where he's like, "I think I can say something about this." Something I would love to talk about a little bit is, how does Ray do that? And maybe what are some techniques for doing that that could be useful? The one that came to mind for me is called the COIN model.
Jen Dionisio 41:58 Oh, I've never heard of that.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 42:00 Yeah, so COIN, it's similar to one that some people I know in tech have used called SBI, which is Situation, Behavior, Impact. But what COIN is Context, Observations, Impact, Next steps. And I find the subtle differences actually really helpful here. It was created by a woman named Anna Carroll, and I use it all the time. So the idea of COIN is that it is about giving feedback in ways that are less judgmental and personal, like "You're doing something wrong and bad," and that are more focused on what you are noticing about what's not working.
And that piece about noticing is really important, so it's more about those observations, which again, that's why I like it over something like SBI, because it's not just about the behavior somebody's having. But it's like I'm observing. "What I see you doing is..." "What I noticed is..." Because that kind of takes a little bit of the sting out of it sometimes, sort of neutralizes it. An example here might be with Ray, Ray said, you know, "We get bogged down in inane discussions, the plans are unrealistic, and it's just a waste of time top to bottom."
Now, I'm guessing this is not what they would go in and tell their boss if left to their own devices. Like, this is pretty harsh. But I think we can start there. And we can say, "Okay, well, this is Ray's experience. Now, what's an example of a discussion that got bogged down last time?" That's your context. So it's really helpful to be concrete about that, to be able to say like, "Hey, last year when we had these meetings, in this particular discussion or around this particular topic, this is where we seemed to get bogged down or stalled."
And that can avoid some defensive responses, because otherwise we can easily get vague. And when we get vague, we start kind of being like, "This always happens," and nothing will raise somebody's defenses sooner than saying, "This always happens, or this never happens." Because they'll be like, "No, it doesn't always happen." And they'll come up with reasons that that's not true. And so being a little bit narrower is really helpful, because then you can point to something specific and concrete. And so then the observations: what did you observe happening in the room last year? What do you think made those conversations go sideways? Like, what did you notice that led to those conversations going sideways?
And then also, what were you observing after the sessions? When did that initiative fall apart? Or when did that project stall out? And then that really brings in the impact, right? So like, how did it impact the organization to have invested in a planning process that then didn't pan out in the end? What did that end up costing folks? All of this can be done in a way that is not about blaming or shaming or just criticizing. It's not a teardown. It's more through the lens of "I know that we want these things to be successful. And here's what I noticed got in the way last year." And that's we're opening the door to do things differently this year.
Jen Dionisio 44:48 Right. And so, sharing what you've noticed and felt, you know, I imagine, too, would really help with people who tend to just rush to solutioning before actually kind of getting at the root of what's going on.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 45:00 Yeah, and I think the more that you can talk about things you're noticing and observing, and the less of that you bring in sort of like judgment and blame, or like that this is a waste of time, right? The less you bring that in, the more likely that people can actually hear you. And that they can pause and think through the situation, you know, more intentionally, more slowly. And that's so important, because if they're jumping immediately to feeling judged, they're not going to hear you at all.
And so that actually brings me to something else I want to talk about before we get into that last part of COIN, which is next steps. When you speak up, Ray, I'm going to suggest to you that you remember that the problem here is not that the head of your org wants to plan. The problem is not the concept of the strategic planning. The problem is the execution, right? Like, the process is not working. And the reason I think that that's really important is that I would bet that your organization head has underlying needs and goals that they're trying to accomplish here.
There's something about these sessions, that they're hoping will give them something. And I think if you understand what that is, that's going to help you. So think about what you know, or see if you need to ask questions to find out why it is that they want to do this. What are they hoping that these sessions will accomplish? When you understand that, that can help you do two things: the first thing is in your conversation with them, you can acknowledge and validate the underlying needs and goals that they have separately from validating their method of achieving them.
Because, like, the problem you have is the method, but you can still validate what's underneath that. And that is going to help them feel less attacked. And that's going to just make it a lot easier for you to get heard. And then two: if you can get at the underlying needs, underlying goals, then you're opening up space for a more creative conversation about next steps. Because you can start thinking about what are some alternate ways that we can achieve the goals that this department head has that might work a little bit better with this crowd or might lead to fewer, you know, project derailments, or stalls, or just wastes of time down the road?
And I think that that piece is really important, because if we get stuck on the process, right, like the strategic planning process as it is today, then we kind of cut off the conversation about other ways to get those needs met.
Jen Dionisio 47:35 It really sounds like this kind of sets you up for an opportunity to lead with empathy, right? By understanding what your boss needs. And likely some of those needs might overlap with yours. So it sounds like this COIN situation really sets up a way for that sort of solutioning together, instead of it being like, "You're bad. And you don't know how to do any of this."
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 47:59 Right. Because when you think about it that way, it's more like saying like, "Hey, Jen, I know how important it is to you that we get on the same page as an organization for this coming year. When we did strategic planning last year, I noticed that our conversations about X initiative, Y project, Z budget line dragged on longer than we had scheduled time for, and afterward, I talked to some people who felt like they didn't have clarity, or whatever those problems were," right? Like, you're talking to those problems. "I want to make sure that we can improve on that this year. So can we talk a little bit about what we might approach differently?" That's a really different kind of conversation than just like, "I don't want to do this. This is a waste of time."
Jen Dionisio 48:41 Yeah, I feel like as a manager, hearing that feedback would really shut me down.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 48:47 Right. So Jen, can we transition a little bit and talking about Ray's boss now? Because yeah, I want to know, if they had submitted a question about this, what would you tell them?
Jen Dionisio 48:58 There are a few things I'd want the boss to consider. Why isn't your team speaking up about these meetings and their consequences? I would assume a pretty easy first step could be that, you know, when it comes to important initiatives like this, introduce retrospectives where people can share what they recommend you stop, start, and continue. I know some of these practices can be a little unfamiliar to folks in nonprofits. But I think there's a lot of these sort of rituals that can be really beneficial to introduce across industries.
And I would also recommend create a space where people are expected to give feedback on how things are going, because that will make it a lot more likely that people share without feeling like they have to go out of their way to provide critique. Like, I feel like that's something that is really hard for Ray; it's not like there is like a survey to fill out at the end to give your feedback. You have to really kind of set up a conversation and wonder whether this feedback is welcome or not. And at the very least, talk to your people informally after these kinds of sessions. Find out what they think went well or what could be improved.
And check in with yourself, too to see, how do you respond to feedback when it could be perceived as negative or critical? You know, do you personalize it? Do you dismiss it? It might be time to dig a little deeper and kind of see what is making your senior leaders so hesitant to be honest with you.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 50:35 Jen, I'm so glad you mentioned that again, because I think it's really becoming the theme of this show that like as a leader, you just absolutely have to recognize the power dynamics in place and know that there's always a risk that your people will not feel like they can be honest with you. And in this scenario, it's like your senior leaders feel like they can't be honest with you. And that's a problem. And I think the important thing is also for somebody in, you know, Ray's manager's position to recognize that's not a problem with your team, right? Like, that's a flag to you as the leader that you have more work to do to create safety for your team.
And you have more work to do to kind of investigate what it is that they're holding back and not put it on them and assume that it should just be them. But figure out what do they need to feel confident they can say the things that need to be said without it coming back to bite them? And I think that's the thing I hope everybody listening takes away from this today.
Jen Dionisio 51:33 Ah, Sara, we got to do more of these where we talk to both the submitter and the manager or the other person involved. I think that really goes back to your point that it takes two to create a dilemma.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 51:47 Yeah, and you know, I'll even end on that note, to everybody who is listening today: When you choose to have a difficult conversation, when you choose to speak up about something, you're only one side of that equation. And we hope that the tools that we're sharing will help you do a better job with your side, right? Like, for you to show up in that conversation in a way that you feel proud of. And for you to find some courage to speak up for the things that you need.
And also know that it's not all on you. So when you are faced with a party that isn't ready to listen, when you aren't getting the same respect back that you're giving, that is not your personal failing. This is about you figuring out how to do your best and how to be the kind of person that you want to be in the world. And then we got to let other people decide to do that too. So know that this always takes two, and you're just learning to do the best job you can do.
Jen Dionisio 52:40 Amen.
Jen Dionisio 52:47 That's it for this week's episode. Per My Last Email is a production of Active Voice. Check us out at https://www.activevoicehq.com/ and get all the past episodes show notes and full transcripts for Per My Last Email at https://pmleshow.com/. This episode was produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is (I'm a) Modern Woman by Maria T. Buy her album at https://thisismariat.bandcamp.com/. Thank you to "Both/And," "On My Own," and Ray for sharing their dilemmas on today's show, and thank you for listening. If you've got to work dilemma eating away at you send it over to us head to https://pmleshow.com/ to submit your story.