KRISTEN WELKER:
Our issues this Sunday: October surprises. In Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin faces a huge setback after an explosion damages a bridge to a critical supply line in Crimea -- as President Biden warns the risk of a nuclear attack is at its highest level since the Cuban Missile Crisis.
ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS:
We are closer to a potential use of a nuclear weapon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
In the Senate race in Georgia, Republican hopeful Herschel Walker denies allegations he paid for an ex-girlfriend’s abortion
HERSCHEL WALKER:
The abortion thing is false. It’s a lie.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Abortion rights now taking center stage in a race that could determine which party controls the Senate.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
The people of Georgia need a senator who will stand with women.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And gas prices could spike ahead of Election Dayafter OPEC cuts oil production, putting Democrats on the defensive.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I was able to bring gasoline down well over $1.60 but it’s inching up because of what the Russians and Saudis just did.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'll speak with Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska and Democratic Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin of Michigan. Plus, presidential portrait.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It helps when you’ve done nothing wrong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Maggie Haberman of The New York Times and author of the new book "Confidence Man" is here with her new reporting on the former president’s document fight and an in-depth look at his rise to power, including Donald Trump's changing views on abortion, reversing the position he once made right here on this program.
DONALD TRUMP:
I’m very pro-choice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are:YamicheAlcindor, moderator of Washington Week on PBS, former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki, and Republican strategist Brendan Buck. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. I'm Kristen Welker, in for Chuck Todd. Election day is just 30 days away, and that means 30 more days of October and November surprises. The term "October surprise" was coined during the 1980 presidential campaign. Ronald Reagan worried Jimmy Carter would engineer a last-minute release of U.S. hostages held in Iran. Carter, of course, did not, but the term stuck. There are at least three stories unfolding that may produce a surprise this cycle. First, the nuclear threat from Russia. President Biden warned in a private fundraiser this week that "We have not faced the prospect of Armageddon since the Cuban Missile Crisis" in 1962. Then. there are rising gas prices -- now averaging just under $4 dollars a gallon, which Democrats worry will be a sign to voters that there is trouble in the economy.But it is, of course, the Georgia Senate race which produced the "October surprise" of the week,since it could determine control of the Senate.Herschel Walker, the Republican nominee who has been running as an anti-abortion candidate -- opposing abortion even in cases of rape or incest -- spent the week denying allegations by a woman that he paid for her abortion in 2009.She now tellsThe New York Times he urged her to terminate a second pregnancy two years later. They ended their relationship when she refused. The woman, who is also the mother of one of his four children, shared a $575 dollar receipt for her abortion procedure and a copy of a check from Walker reimbursing her, as well as a “get well” card he allegedly signed.Over the week, Walker's explanations have evolved:
[BEGIN TAPE]
HERSCHEL WALKER:
I never asked anyone to get an abortion. I never paid for an abortion. It's a lie.
BRIAN KILMEADE:
Here's the card, and you signed it. Is that you?
HERSCHELWALKER:
That's what I said on Sean, that looks like my signature. First of all, I never just put an H on anything, I never have.
HERSCHELWALKER:
If that had happened, I would have said there's nothing to be ashamed of there. People have done that but I know nothing about it.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
You said that if this did happen, there's nothing to be ashamed of. How do you square that--
HERSCHELWALKER:
I never said – I never said.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
You said that this morning on Hugh Hewitt’s show.
HERSCHELWALKER:
No, what I -- I was talking about something totally different that did happen—with my ex-wife in my past. Nothing to do with what this woman says. This, this here, the abortion thing, is false. It's a lie. If anything happened there’s nothing to be ashamed because my ex-wife and I have been the best of friends with her husband and my wife.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Republicans have largely stood by Walker.As TexasSenatorTed Cruz told my colleague VaughnHillyard: “I want every Republican running for senate in this country to win.”I'm joined now by Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, whose toss-up race for re-election is one of NBC's most consequential races to watch. Congressman Bacon, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. DON BACON:
Well, thank you, Kristen. Thanks for having me back on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is good to see you. I do want to start right there in Georgia, the headlines this week. Given everything that we have seen, do you support Herschel Walker?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, I sure do, more for the policy positions he's going to take. Senator Warnock is one of the most liberal, progressive folks. He wants on abortion on demand until birth. Only one in five voters support that. Now, Herschel needs to come clean and just be honest. We also know that we all make mistakes. And it's just better if this actually did happen to say, "I'm sorry," and ask for forgiveness.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But--
REP. DON BACON:
But this also can be done about positions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, but Congressman, let me ask you, let me ask you this, though, Congressman. By supporting Herschel Walker, given these allegations, is the GOP, are you, sending a message that Republicans are willing to win at all costs?
REP. DON BACON:
I think people make mistakes. And if people acknowledge them and ask for forgiveness, none of us are perfect. And also we've got to realize that Senator Warnock has his ownallegations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But he hasn’t acknowledged that this is one of his mistakes. Do you want to hear more from him on this issue? It sounds like you still have questions.
REP. DON BACON:
Well, I think it's just best to be candid. I've learned that in my own life. Be candid, be honest. But in the end, this is going to be about policy positions. Senator Warnock is one of the most liberal people in the Senate. He wants abortion on demand until birth. Only one in five voters support that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do the allegations—
REP. DON BACON:
There’s also allegations against Senator --- well, let me get a word in here too on this. Senator Warnock has his own allegations. What about spousal abuse? There are allegations out there too. So I hope the media does just as much attention on these allegations of Senator Warnock and what his wife, his ex-wife, said she was being abused by him. So I hope you're showing some equal opportunity herewith both these candidates.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And those are allegations that he, of course, has denied as well. But let ask you more broadly speaking. Does this undercut the Republican Party's broader message of being anti-abortion when you have these conflicting things happening with Herschel Walker?
REP. DON BACON:
I think you just stand on principle here. When , when I look at our own race right now, I think --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But does it undercut that principle, Congressman? Does it undercut that principle?
REP.DON BACON:
It can undercut. You want to walk the talk and talk the walk. You want to have cohesion with your message. But people also make mistakes. I'm surely no, I’m not a flawless person by no means. I have made my own mistakes in life. And Herschel has too. We all have.I think it's better just to be honest. But in the end, Americans do not want abortion on demand until birth. And I think that that's the principle that we need to focus on as a Republican Party. The average voter, and I have several different polls, would like to see restrictions at about the 15-week-point. That's where Europe is at right now. Germany's is there. France is there. Our policies at the federal level are aligned with China and North Korea. And that's where Senator Warnock's at.That's where my opponent's at.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let, let me follow up with you on that point then. Can you say point blank that you support Senator Lindsey Graham's proposal for a federal ban on abortion after 15 weeks?
REP. DON BACON:
On principle, I do, because I think most voters support a 15-week ban. It's where Europe is at. Most free countries have gone there. But the reality is, the Senate will not be able to pass that because of the 60 vote -- you know, the filibuster. So most of these decisions are going to be made at the state level. Because that's where decisions can be made. And whether we have pro-abortion majority in the House and Senate, or a pro-life majority in the Senate or House, you're not going to get past a 60-vote thresholdin the Senate. So the reality is, most of this is going to be done at the state level.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Congressman, and I hear you. But I think a lot of people would be interested in the fact that you support this 15-week-ban at the federal level because Republicans have been arguing for 50 years now that this should be a state's issue. Now you're going against that.
REP. DON BACON:
Well, the voters get to decide. They get to decide by selecting representatives at the state and the federal level. But on principle, I believe in the humanity of the unborn child. I think the science has taken us way beyond where Roe v. Wade had us.That's why Roe v. Wade prohibited states fromgoing to 15-week restrictions, for example. And most of the free world has left, has left America behind. The free world has seen the science of the unborn child. And they've moved more towards a more reasonable policy of 12-15 weeks. I do believe America should go the same direction.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me follow up with you on that because you co-sponsored the Life at Conception Act, which would effectively have given a fetus constitutional rights from the moment of fertilization. So why now support legislation that would allow over 90% of abortions to occur?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, on principle I am pro-life. And I'm going to defend the humanity of the unborn. Now the--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But isn't supporting a 15-weekban in contradiction to also supporting the idea that a fetus has constitutional rights at conception?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, I want to move us forward. You know, we have too many people in Washington saying, "I demand 100%." And they won't take 50% or 40%. I believe I want to move us -- we want to move the right direction here. And I do believe in the personhood of the unborn. However, this same law doesn't prohibit state legislatures or the federal government to put in various restrictions or exceptions.It just says on principle the unborn child has humanity. And I believe that. But it still gives legislators the right to restrict or provide exceptions. But the American voters right now are at 12-15 weeks. I accept that reality. And I want to move us forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, let's talk about foreign policy. This week -- of course, you serve on the House Armed Services Committee. You are a decorated Air Force veteran. We all learned this week that President Biden at a closed-door fundraiser with Democrats warned of a nuclear “Armageddon.” Is that consistent with your perspective? Is that your assessment of the threat right now?
REP. DON BACON:
I do think Vladimir Putin is a cornered animal. I think he is, right now, unpredictable, unstable. He is getting beat in Ukraine piece by piece. And he's, he’s being embarrassed. His country's being embarrassed not only by being defeated, but the barbaric behavior of his country in Ukraine, stealing their grain, sexually assaulting their women, murdering those innocent people. This is the view of the world has towards Russia and Putin. But I think he's a cornered animal. Right now, he's unstable. But you can't let this guy threaten us and bully us around. Because if you cave out of fear, he'll do it again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me turn to--
REP. DON BACON:
We got to stand firm with them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Go ahead. Go ahead. Finish, Congressman.
REP. DON BACON:
Well, we just got to stand firm towards them. You can't let a bully push you around. I also do think President Biden's got to be more careful though. Throwing down the nuclear Armageddon was a little too flippant. President of France, Macron, chided him on it. I think the president needs to be more cautious.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about another campaign issue. Obviously, the issue of crime has loomed large. I want to ask you about some comments that we heard from Senator Tommy Tuberville overnight at a rally with former President Trump. Take a listen. I'll get your reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE:
Some people say, "Well, they're soft on crime." No, they're not soft on crime. They're pro-crime. They want crime. They want crime because they want to take over what you got. They want to control what you have. They want reparation because they think the people that do the crime are owed that. Bull****.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are those comments appropriate for a sitting U.S. Senator, Congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
I wouldn't say it the same way, but there is a problem in our country with crime. Major cities have seen a 40-50% increase in violent crime. And the primary reason, in my view, is we have these far-left prosecutors, county attorneys and mayors who are releasing violent criminals back on the street.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Congressman—
REP. DON BACON:
My opponent—
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, there is a different way to say that. I mean, most people heard those--
REP. DON BACON:
I would be more polite.
KRISTEN WELKER:
comments and felt not just polite, but a lot of people heard those comments as being racist.
REP. DON BACON:
Yeah, that's not the way I present things. Be we got to be honest that we have a crime problem in our country.We have liberal prosecutors releasing--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you feel as though those commentscross a racial line, Congressman? Do they cross a racial line?
REP. DON BACON:
I don’t, I don’t, I'm not going to say he's being racist. But I wouldn't use that language, be more polite. But the fact is we can't ignore we have a 40-50% violent crime increase. It's because Democrat politicians and prosecutors are putting violent criminals back on the street early. And it's unacceptable. When a guy commits a crime the first time, shame on them. When society releases that same criminal and they create more victims, that's shame on us for letting that happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask--
REP. DON BACON:
-- And too many Democrat politicians are releasing these criminals on the street.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you very quickly about what is happening inside your own party. According to our NBC News political unit, 219 House Republican candidates have actively questioned or outright denied the 2020 election results. Would you be comfortable serving alongside them?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, as you know, I certified the election. I supported the bipartisan commission. I condemned the violence that day. And so, I just stand on my own record. You know, districts get to elect their own people. We have had people on the other side of aisle call the 2016 election illegitimate.Hillary Clinton did that. We have the lady from Georgia who lost her election still has not conceded defeat from two years ago or four years ago. So, both sides are guilty. I don't like the hypocrisy though of focusing on just one side on the elections. I believe in protecting our elections. I have voted that way. I've spoke that way. But we tend to -- our media tends to focus on just the Republican Party here, when you have Hillary Clinton also questioning the—
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman--
REP. DON BACON:
--legitimacy of the 2016 election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, well, let me ask you. The last time you were on this show, you told Chuck that you would not support former President Trump for the Republican nomination in 2024. But I want to ask you. If he is the party's nominee, will you vote for him?
REP. DON BACON:
When we get to that point, I'll let you know. In the meantime, we're going to have this election in--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you're up for reelection right now--
REP. DON BACON:
--thirty days--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, a lot of voters want to know where you stand on this issue. Will you support former President Trump if he's the nominee in 2024?
REP. DON BACON:
I have made my point for the primary. That's as far as I want to go right now. In the end, we got to win in November and take back the House and the Senate to stop Joe Biden's policy. We need to force him back in the middle. That is where my focus is at.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Congressman Bacon, thank you so much--
REP. DON BACON:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--for joining Meet the Press. Really appreciate it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Democratic Congresswoman Elissa--
REP. DON BACON:
Yes, ma'am.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--Slotkin of Michigan joins me now. Her race is also rated a toss-up. Welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So I want to ask you about the political drama that is unfolding in Georgia. I was just talking about it with Congressman Bacon, and I want to ask you about the response from the Democratic incumbent, Raphael Warnock, who has decided not to directly attack Herschel Walker to address, really, these claims repeatedly on the campaign trail. Given the high stakes of Georgia is that a mistake, Congresswoman?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
I don't know. I mean, I think what Mr. Walker is doing himself is enough for voters to see, right? He's being accused of something, he's not admitting it, or he's dodging. People are saying that he, you know, people make mistakes but he's not admitting that mistake. I understand the instinct to just let him stand in the spotlight and answer for his own record, and not take that as a moment to just kind of double down on the attack.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, well abortion is obviously an issue that you care a lot about. You have talked quite a bit about it, and abortion is actually on the ballot in your state, in fact the ballot proposal would enshrine a right to an abortion, and opponents argue the problem with it is that it's too wide-ranging, that there are no limits on third trimester abortions. So let me put this question to you directly, Congresswoman, would you like to see limits on third trimester abortions?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yeah, I mean, the ballot initiative that we have says that you can have the right to an abortion up to the point of viability, and then afterwards it has to be because of the health of the mother deemed by a medical professional. So it's not abortion on demand, it's not through the ninth month, all these talking points that the Republicans are using because they know they're on their heels on this issue. So I support that ballot initiative. I think it's written correctly, and it codifies Roe in a state where without that we're facing a 1931 ban.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But again, just on that issue of third trimester abortions, should there be restrictions to that?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yes. I agree with the proposal which says up to viability you have the right to make that decision on your own, but afterwards you need the input of a medical professional. I think that's the right place for our state, and frankly, I think for the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have prided yourself on being a moderate Democrat, and I wonder if you think there is room within the conversation around abortion for Democrats who are anti-abortion like John Bel Edwards or Representative Henry Cuellar?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Yes. I mean, I think for me I represent a district that's Republican-leaning. The vast majority of my constituents identify as pro-life, and I've been at plenty of events as recently as yesterday where people will say, "Look, I'm a pro-life Democrat."But I think the distinction is that they're not trying to impose their will on this issue on other people, on other women, right? They have a personal conviction that they feel very firmly about, and I respect that. But they're not trying to say that their will has to be imposed on the rest of all women. And I think that’s-- they have a place in this party, but I think they also will say very openly they don't believe the government should make that decision for women.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about one of the top issues for voters in races all across this country right now, Congresswoman, of course that is the economy. Republicans including your opponent have accused you and Democrats of overspending, whether we're talking about the COVID Relief Bill, or the latest Inflation Reduction Act. What do you say to that criticism that Democrats have actually made inflation worse by overspending?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
Well, first of all I think we can't dance away from the fact that inflation is a real issue that's affecting every single person in this country. I don't know one family that isn't making different decisions because of how bad inflation is, and we don't win any points by trying to pretend it's not there. It's there. I think for me, there's almost, like, a gleefulness about some Republicans including my opponent about how bad inflation is. There's a gleefulness when prices of gas are going up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Congresswoman I guess I'm asking--
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
And I think that's just as a leader--
KRISTEN WELKER:
--do Democrats bear some of the responsibility--
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
--not the right approach.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--but do Democrats bear some of the responsibility? You control the White House, both chambers of Congress, why shouldn't voters hold Democrats responsible for the economy?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
I think they do. I think-- while I think inflation is obviously a worldwide phenomenon, I'm open to the fact that we have to make decisions here in the United States, Democrats are in power, we're in the White House, in the House, in the Senate, even if it's slim margins.So sure, I do think that there is rightful skepticism about particularly the last COVID package, and I think that's why you've seen a lot of us in Congress really shy away from another COVID package even when the White House was proposing one this past summer. So I own it, but I think it has to be reflected, you know, across the world, that it's going—it'sa post-COVID phenomenon that we're trying to deal with the best we can.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about student loan debt. Are you comfortable with President Biden's plan to forgive student loan debt even though it's likely going to add $400 billion to the debt?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
I did not support the proposal that the President put forward or the action that the President took forward. It's not that I don't understand that we have a crisis of college affordability. I represent Michigan State in five universities and colleges, but I thought it was a Band-Aid that didn't get to the underlying problem. I was vocal about that. I want to get to a better place on college affordability, but a one-off like this that doesn't help, like, a current freshman at Michigan State University to me is not the way I would have gone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman, given what we saw from OPEC this week, the decision to cut two million barrels of oil per day, do you believe that President Biden's trip to Saudi Arabia, that fist bump diplomacy, do you think that was a mistake?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
You know, you have to try. I appreciate his willingness to try, and there's nothing more important right now to inflation than the price of gas. So you have to do it, but I think the Saudis have made a really strategic error, and I can't say whether, you know, Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, over-promised to the President, or if he just absolutely threw that promise out the window. Either way the Saudis are going to be living with this decision for a long time, right? We've been partners for 70 years. They had a strategic decision to make about whether to help the world economy and put more oil in there, or to cut it back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
At best they made a decision that didn't help the rest of the world. At worst, they aligned themselves with Putin, so –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman--
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
--we have a problem.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--Congresswoman, let me ask you a little bit about politics. You have said that Democrats will support President Biden if he runs again in 2024, but I want to ask you personally: do you plan to support President Biden if he runs again in 2024?
REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:
He's the sitting President. If he decides to run again, I'm going to support him, the party's going to support him. That’s- you know, that has a long history in our country. But I have been very vocal, including with my own leadership in the House, that we need a new generation, we need new blood, period, across the Democratic Party. In the House, the Senate, and the White House. I think that the country has been saying that and, you know, I'm one of just a handful of members of Congress who hasn't voted for Nancy Pelosi as speaker, and I've said, "I think we need new leaders." I would love to see some Midwestern leaders in there, right? That's been important to me, to reflect the middle of the country, we're here too. But I do think new blood is a good thing. But if the sitting President of the United States decides to run, we're going to support him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, thank you so much for joining Meet the Press, really appreciate it. When we come back a reporter who has covered Donald Trump for decades, Maggie Haberman of The New York Times is here with fresh reporting, and her new book Confidence Man.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Under the Presidential Records Act, everything should come back, and there is no crime. You negotiate. Whatever you negotiate is fine. It's a process. But they make it sound like the greatest crime in America was committed.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The Justice Department suspects former President Trump still has documents that belong to the government, and possibly classified material beyond what was seized at Mar-a-Lago. Sources tell NBC News that the top DOJ counterintelligence official recently communicated that concern to Trump's legal team.The Justice Department has signaled in court filings that there may be documents missing. FBI agents found 48 empty folders marked classified when they searched Mar-a-Lago in August. Author and New York Times senior political reporter Maggie Haberman has been covering Trump since her days at the New York Post in the 1990s.Her new book Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America, and Maggie is here. Welcome back to Meet the Press. Here is the book. Maggie Haberman, congratulations.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's so good to have you. So--
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Good to be here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I've read it cover to cover.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
That’s great.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fantastic book, and we are going to delve into it. But as we are sitting here, as you've just completed this, you're still reporting on Donald Trump. And your headlines in recent days include the fact that DOJ officials believe that there are still classified documents at Mar-a-Lago and that Mr. Trump may have been trying to cut some type of a deal. Do you think that Donald Trump understands how much legal jeopardy he's in right now?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I actually do think he understands how much legal jeopardy he's in. And then- and then I think he convinces himself that it's not that bad. But the fact that he spent $3 million on a retainer for a lawyer, whose advice he has sometimes not listened to, I should note.But the fact that he was willing to do that, I had people who worked for Trump in the 1990s reach out to me to say, "This is the biggest legal retainer he has ever paid," as far as they knew. So I think that speaks to how concerned he is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I think it's a significant point you make, because you really detail all of the legal battles that he has had, going back to the 1990s. In this moment, you're making the point it feels different. Let me ask you about one of the passages in your book that relates to this current moment.It relates to Herschel Walker, who Trump handpicked to run for Senate in Georgia. You asked him about what you called a complicated personal history that worried Republicans from the bat. So, this was a conversation from a year ago in your book.Former President Trump says to you, quote, "I don't think it's a problem today." You ask, "Why is that… Why do you think that's changed?" The President responds, "Because the world is changing." You write, "He did acknowledge that it was changing- "He didn't acknowledge that it was changing because he had helped change it." And as you know, Maggie, a lot of people have compared this moment to the Access Hollywood moment from Trump's candidacy. Is that a fair assessment, do you think?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I think it's an understandable benchmark that people are looking toward. And I should note that when we had that conversation, Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, was still not on board with Walker. I think he sort of threw in the towel eventually and got behind him.I don't know that everything is the same as Donald Trump. And I think that's what we're going to find out. There is- Donald Trump, I still believe, there are people who can follow his playbook. There are people who can try to be like him. More often than not, they're people who are celebrities, either in the world of film or television or sports.But Trump, I still think, may be sui generis in that he was part of the pop culture fabric for so many decades. And also, the nature of these allegations are not the same as the Access Hollywood tape. And that was one of a number of controversies that Trump had survived. This feels a little different. But we'll see.
KRISTEN WELKER:
One of the things that makes your book so fascinating to read is that you do go back to the beginning, and you describe a portrait of a man who has wrestled with the truth since his very early days. And you have this anecdote, when he goes to the dedication of the Verrazano Bridge with his father. He's a freshman in college at the time. And then years later, he talks to a New York Times reporter about it. And he gets all sorts of details wrong. The weather. Things that were said at that dedication. And you write, "[H]e revealed himself to be an unreliable narrator of his own history from its early moments. His comments went unchecked for years but for good reason: why would anyone think such details might be untrue?" Where do you think that impulse comes from, Maggie, from the former president to not tell the truth about things?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
It's a great question, but it has been with him for a very, very long time. I think there are parts of it that he absorbed-this is before Roy Cohn, his famous fixer and lawyer, was in his life. I think some of it is what he absorbed from his father, honestly, who, you know, was a very effective businessman but knew how to cut corners.And knew how to handle things certain ways. Trump just takes everything to an extremely different level. And so exactly why it is that he seems to get- have this need and get this charge out of saying something that isn’t true, or other times convinces himself something is the case because it feels better. And then still other times, it sounds better. And I talk about that in the book, that sometimes he tells people, "Say XYZ. It sounds better." It's all of the above.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And of course, we saw that play out in the oval office, as well, as he struggled with the truth over and over again. Now you have 219 candidates who fall into the category of election deniers. Do you think even Mr. Trump understood that he would have that impact on the party?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I don't. I mean, I think that he looks at everything in terms of what works for him in short, ten-minute increments of time. I think that the effect that it could have on other people, I think he delights in it. I think he likes feeling like he's powerful and like he's shaping the party. But I don't think that's the reason, and I don't think that's the long-term strategy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You also talk about his relationship with race over time. Goes back to his father. You also have this anecdote about how he pitches this idea to have an apprentice show that's divided along racial lines, African American candidates versus Caucasian candidates. And he even confuses some Democratic staffers of color who are in the oval office with some of the serving staff. How do you think Mr. Trump has influenced race in America?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I think if you look at that clip that you played earlier in the show of Senator Tuberville saying what he said, I can't imagine someone- He's a former high school football coach. I can't imagine someone saying that a few years ago. I think he has created a permission structure for people to say what used to be known as the quote-unquote "quiet part," in race-baiting politics, out loud. And now it's just the doors are blown open.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to talk to you about yourself, Maggie Haberman the reporter. This has been covered, but I do want to delve into this, which is that the former president has said of you, "I love being with her. She's like my psychiatrist." You've kind of dismissed those comments. You've said that's flattery. He says this to a number of different reporters. But at the same time, he does actually reach out to you more directly, arguably, than most other reporters. Why do you think that is?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I think he's fixated with the New York Times. And I think that I am the person who covers him more often for the paper and who he identifies with the paper more. But it really is about this decades-old outer borough New York City guy trying to make his way in Manhattan and saw the New York Times as synonymous with the elites who looked down on him. He had this line that he said to the publisher of the New York Times, and we made this public back in 2019 when he was president, over the resolute desk, he’s talking about our- he's complaining about coverage, which as you know, every president does. But in Trump's case, he was complaining, "I think I'm entitled to a good story from my paper." And if you want the clearest distillation of how he views the New York Times, that's it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And very quickly, you have said you think it's more likely than not that he will run again in 2024. Is there anything other than health that you think prevents him from doing so at this point, Maggie?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I think a fear of losing and I think a disinterest in the process the way it is now. You know, there is a bitterness around him and a quickness to anger. That you know, he was always pretty quick to anger, but it has gotten more intense. Those are the reasons I could see. You know, something unforeseen, like something related to one of these cases, these legal cases, maybe. But I think he has backed himself into a corner and has to run.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fascinating, fascinating stuff. It's a fascinating read. Confidence Man. Stick around, because you're on our panel. We have a lot more to discuss with you, Maggie. Up next, with 30 days to go until the midterms, the battle for Senate control is heating up as the candidates finally debate the issues. Our panel is here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We are back now with the panel. Maggie Haberman is still with us and joining us are Yamiche Alcindor, NBC News Washington correspondent and moderator of PBS Washington Week; Brendan Buck former adviser to Speaker’s Paul Ryan and John Boehner; and Jen Psaki, former White House press secretary and an NBC News contributor. Thanks to all of you for being here. Yamiche, let’s start with what’s happening on the ground in Georgia. You were there for many days. Is this Herschel Walker controversy resonating, or do you think he survives it?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Well, certainly a lot of people in Georgia are talking about it. But people, based on my reporting, are already in their camps. If you’re someone who didn’t like Herschel Walker like Lisa Gordon, this African American woman, who told me she had never even considered Herschel Walker because he was facing a host of domestic abuse claims. She didn’t think that he had the character to serve in the U.S. Senate. But I didn’t meetone Republican voter who was changing their mind. And that means, everyone that I talked to said, "I don't like this. Or maybe it's made up. Maybe he's telling the truth.Either way, it's not changing my vote." And I'm think about this one voter; her name is Linda Oviot. She's an elderly white woman. She told me, "One hundred percent I believe these allegations. I think Herschel Walker is lying right now."She told me, "I'm still voting for him. People make mistakes. He's now someone who is an opponent of abortion rights. And as a result, I'm going to continue to stick with him." And really, I think this is about people seeing politics as tribal, seeing Herschel Walker as a means to an end. And that end being more restrictions on abortion, maybe a better economy, maybe harsher policies on crime. Name it. That's what Republican voters are telling me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and they also see it as a way to win the Senate. And Brendan, top Republicans are standing by him. I want to play a little bit of the sound that we heard from top Republicans this week and then get your reaction.
[BEGIN TAPE]
VAUGHN HILLYARD:
Do you stand by Herschel Walker?
SEN. TED CRUZ:
I believe Herschel Walker's going to be the next senator. I'm proud to support Herschel Walker--
VAUGHN HILLYARD:
But do you want them to elect that Republican?
SEN. TED CRUZ:
Absol -- Hell yes, I want every Republican running for Senate in this country to win.
SEN. RICK SCOTT:
Herschel's going to win. So they're going to throw everything under the sun at him.Herschel is a great candidate. He's focused on the right issues.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And NBC News has now confirmed that Scott and Tom Cotton are going to be campaigning with him this week. You're from Georgia. You've been talking to your sources down there. What are folks telling you about how big of an impact this is having and whether this type of full-throated support may be risky for Republicans?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Well, they're certainly circling the wagons, and that's because of what's at stake here. This seat could decide who controls the Senate. So it's not surprising at all that Rick Scott, whose job is to get Republicans elected, is backing him. But it's not hard to run into a Brian Kemp, Republican governor, Raphael Warnock voter in Georgia.And that's the problem. I don't think this is going to change a lot of things. I think it is relatively baked in. But you have to remember, Herschel Walker was losing before this happened. Herschel Walker needs to make up ground in the last month. People are going to be starting to vote very soon in Georgia.And the reason that the Republicans have been doing poorly in Georgia recently is the northern Atlanta suburbs. I know Yamiche spent some time in Marietta, Alpharetta, Roswell, these areas where Republicans have been losing educated women particularly. And this is a candidate who is raising the issue of abortion. That's not going to help him get back to where he needs to be to get over 50%.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
And 1 or 2% percent, it makes all the difference in Georgia, right? Let's also remember, all you need is that to make – to win this seat. So that's even if people are baked in. One or two percent of women changing their mind and Warnock wins--
KRISTEN WELKER:
It makes a big difference.
JEN PSAKI:
But there's also a potentially very long way to go here because this in all likelihood will go to a runoff in the beginning of December. And so while we're looking at this last week and questioning, is it a game changer? Is it not a game changer? Frankly, I think Senator Warnock is probably doing the smart, strategic thing as of this moment, which is kind of letting Herschel Walker wallow in his muddy pit of scandal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you don't think he should take the gloves off at this point?
JEN PSAKI:
I actually think, for the moment, and you always have to reevaluate in campaigns. You evaluate week by week. But again, this is -- could be a long call. What he is going to have to depend on, Senator Warnock, that is, is whether there's going to be big spending to keep this in the minds of voters over the next month to two months. And then he may have to decide that he may have to take the gloves off, at some point. But I don't think he needs to do that now. And I think he's doing the right thing by letting Herschel Walker just wallow in his muddy scandal pit on his own here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Maggie, one of the things that makes this moment so interesting is that it's sort of like celebrity candidates on display, a lot of them handpicked by Trump. We talked about obviously Herschel Walker, but also Dr. Oz is another one. Is this a key test of celebrity candidates, and does it underscore kind of the challenge with it if you're not Donald Trump?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
I think there's a baseline challenge to that. Number one, he has been in public life as a celebrity for a very long time, dealing with the national media in a way that Herschel Walker was not, but in a way that Dr. Oz was more, right? I mean, so it just depends on which race you're talking about and the specifics.The Oz-Fetterman race is very different than what's happening in Georgia. I think that you're going to have to isolate out these specific races. I don't think that there is a blanket takeaway from this. I do think you will see more celebrity candidates, particularly among Republicans jumping in. And that is the Donald Trump effect.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That is a very good point. I want to talk about the battleground map broadly, now. It runs through nine key states. In order to win back control, Republicans have to flip one of the Senate seats currently held by Democrats in Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, or New Hampshire while holding on to seats in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Florida, and in Wisconsin. In Wisconsin, Republican Senator Ron Johnson, like many Republicans, is trying to put the focus on crime. Take a look at this recent exchange from a debate.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Whenever I see a police officer, I go up to them and I say, "Thank you for your service." And if I have time, I say, "Please, don't be dispirited by the loud few who are trying to defund you."
LT. GOV. MANDELA BARNES:
I'm sure he didn't have the same interaction with the 140 officers that were injured during the January 6th insurrection. Let's talk about the 140 officers that he left behind because of an insurrection that he supported.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Brendan, what do you make of that point/counterpoint?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Well, crime is a big issue. And we talk a lot about inflation; we talk about abortion. Most Republican candidates are running on crime. And particularly in Wisconsin, it is working to devastating effect on Mandela Barnes. Republicans – Ron Johnson is someone who should be very vulnerable, but he has been hitting this crime issue. And in some places, it's just going to work better than others. And in Wisconsin, it is working. I asked somebody, a plugged-in political operative in Wisconsin, "Why is it working so well there?" He said, "One word: Kenosha."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jen?
JEN PSAKI:
I would say I agree with Brendan that crime is an issue that Democrats have to speak to. I think there was a missed opportunity there for Mandela Barnes. When he talked about the insurrection, I think that was a little disconnected from what people in Wisconsin are feeling.I mean, Milwau – crime is up in Milwaukee. If I were him or advising him—which I'm not—I would say, "You should have made it about the use of gun violence and the fact that your opponent has done nothing to address gun violence. And that is what is showing rising crime in Wisconsin." Because that's what people are thinking about. Their fears when they go out their door, less the insurrection, honestly.
BRENDAN BUCK:
There has not been a more potent political issue that I can remember in recent years than Defund the Police. And while Mandela Barnes may have not said he wants to defund the police, he does have a record of wanting to redirect funds away from police. And that is going to hurt, and that is showing up in the polls.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
But here's the interesting thing. We had a country where a man was murdered, strangled, George Floyd. We had a country who then debated race relations and policing, and that backfired. So Defund the Police, while Democrats have continuously said—most Democrats have said—"We don't support that," it stuck to them, because some people in this country were deeply uncomfortable with the fact that we were talking about the fact that Black people get killed at disproportionate rates than white people.We should also remind people that the FBI just this week said, "Murders are up. Violent crime is down." So a lot of this is about fear. But it's fear on both sides because Republicans are saying, "You should be fearing crime. You should be fearing the border." Democrats are saying, "You should be fearing your personal privacy, and you should be fearing threats to democracy."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. It’s certainly the closing arguments that we are seeing. All right. Stick around, guys. We do have a lot more. But when we come back, Elon Musk's potential Twitter takeover and the surprising reality about how much it influences our politics.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. It's looking more and more like Elon Musk, the richest man on the planet, is going to purchase Twitter, kicking off conversations about what that could mean for the social media platform that plays a significant role in our country's political discourse.That role is thanks in part to Donald Trump, who tweeted over 26,000 times as president before being removed from the platform after the January 6th Capitol insurrection. But although Twitter has played a dominant role in American politics, its reach is actually much smaller than you might think.Less than a quarter of Americans say they ever use Twitter. That's a small fraction of some of the more dominant social media platforms like YouTube and Facebook. And of Americans who actually use Twitter, data shows a minority of very active users are producing the overwhelming majority of tweets.The top 25% of American Twitter users are producing 97% of tweets. The other three quarters of the platform's users are just simply reading them. Data also shows that Twitter users lean pretty far left. About 32% of adults who say they are Democrats or that they lean Democratic say they use Twitter. That compares to 17% of Republicans, creating a 15-point partisan gap.Now, Facebook comes closest to having a balanced audience. Musk has indicated he plans to reinstate Donald Trump's account, relax some of the platform's content moderation rules—which would likely allow a lot more disinformation—and enhance its paid subscription option.So the question is: If Musk succeeds, how will his changes affect Twitter as a platform and its relevance to American politics today? When we come back, a look back at Donald Trump's changing views on abortion, reversing the position he once made right here on this program.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, look. I'm very pro-choice. I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Andthe panel's still here with me. I want to start this discussion by talking about President Biden and his wild week from the decision by OPEC to cut oil production, Jen, to these revelations at the end of the week in the Washington Post that investigators believe they do have enough evidence to charge Hunter Biden. It's not clear he's going to be charged, but how large is this looming over the president, over Democrats broadly?
JEN PSAKI:
Well, it was a big week here in Washington. So much news. I don't even know how you decided what to talk about this morning, Kristen. But the truth is, you know, I looked at a bunch of local front pages this morning. And if you look at the front page in Nevada, they're talking about Trump's rally there and what it means for candidates in turning out to vote.If you look at the front pages in Pennsylvania, they're talking about, "Mastriano, does he have a grassroots campaign or movement going?" And obviously, Georgia is quite focused on every latest development in Herschel Walker. So the truth is: As much as there was so much news happening in Washington this week, it doesn't always translate—and often doesn't translate—to what voters are talking about in states. And I think that's what we're seeing currently.
BRENDAN BUCK:
What will probably translate what happened this week is with gas prices. One of the--
JEN PSAKI:
True, the OPEC decision.
BRENDAN BUCK:
One of the big pieces of news this week was that OPEC is cutting back production at the worst possible time for Democrats. And gas prices- If you want to figure out the direction of politics, watch gas prices. And Democrats did better during the summer when they started to tick down. It's very likely they're about to start going back up, and that's bad news for Democrats.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
And I was just talking to a voter who told me, "At the end of the day, it's the party in office that's going to be blamed for this." And we know what White House officials have told me, that they look at this every day. And it's a neon sign on the roads across America. “What is the price of gas?” My friend in- I have a friend who's in Arizona. Just sent me a screenshot of $7 gas prices there, just talking about how worried she is. She's not someone who's deeply into politics, but she's someone who really notices when the economy is going one way or the other.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Administration officials say: first thing they do is look at the gas prices in the morning. I do want to play this sound bite and pivot back to former President Trump. This is from 1999, right here on this program in October with Tim Russert and former President Donald Trump. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Partial birth abortion, the eliminating of abortion in the third trimester. Big issue in Washington. Would President Trump ban partial birth abortion?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, look. I'm very pro-choice. I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it. I hate everything it stands for. I cringe when I listen to people debating the subject. But you still- I just believe in choice. And, again, it may be a little bit of a New York background because there is some different attitude in different parts of the country. And, you know, I was raised in New York and grew up, and work, and everything else in New York City. But I am strongly for choice, and yet I hate the concept of abortion.
TIM RUSSERT:
But you would not ban it?
DONALD TRUMP:
No.
TIM RUSSERT:
Or ban partial birth abortion?
DONALD TRUMP:
No, I am pro-choice in every respect and as far as it goes, but I just hate it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Maggie, one of the things that hits me when you watch that clip, of course, it is former President Trump who appointed the three conservative Supreme Court justices who made it possible to overturn Roe v. Wade. And you were the first to report that Mr. Trump realizes the political place that that puts Republicans in in these midterm elections and possibly 2024.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
There's no question that Republicans are the dog that caught the car on this issue. And you see it with any number of candidates who are having trouble talking about it. Because, while I don't think it is going to rise to the same level as the economy in midterms, it is animating a lot of Democrats to vote.What strikes me actually, listening to that clip, and I've listened to it several times, is he's taking a very liberal position. He's basically saying no limits on abortion. And this was, you know, 20-some-odd years ago. But he's also just not answering the question. I mean, he's basically trying to answer the question by saying, "Pro-choice, hate abortion," and Russert is trying to push him on specifics, and Trump is evading that.And that was part of how Trump was successful in 2015 and 2016, was he, you know, people would present him with this menu of options because he was so vague and jumping all over the place, and so much of his political career—and frankly all of his career—was about sort of bluffing and faking his way through things. And that was another example.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Brendan, obviously that was one of the things that made Republicans so nervous when he first announced his candidacy. And one of the points that Maggie makes in her book is actually, there was a lot of buzz about whether Donald Trump was going to run for the office of the presidency going back to 1999, right? But this issue has loomed very large over him.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Sure. And I think you can look at this issue narrowly at abortion, or you can look at it I think—which is probably the better way to describe where Republican politics is right now—and it's a culture war. There’s a lot of people out there who believe that if you don't support abortion, if you're a Christian, that there are people out to get you, there are elites in Washington.And Donald Trump has very successfully taken the mantle of the person who's there to defend. And it speaks to what Maggie spoke about earlier. He saw himself as an outsider in the outer boroughs trying to get into Manhattan. And so this rich billionaire, how is he the working man's person? He's very successfully said, "I am fighting for you." And people will go- they really don't care what he says at this point. They are going to stand with him because of that.
JEN PSAKI:
But, what you're seeing on the other side, which is also interesting, and it reminds me of the Affordable Care Act debate, is that when something is taken away it makes people very angry. And that's what you're seeing among Democrats. But also you're seeing in places like New Hampshire—which is a fascinating place in the abortion debate to me—it's more people saying, like, "Get out of my uterus. Live free or die. We live in New Hampshire."So this debate, I think, has become much more politically palatable for Democrats, and I think we even thought when I was sitting in the White House when these leaks were happening back in the spring.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
And quickly, you also have the fact that women in this country, they had all these labels. But now, those labels don't make sense anymore because some people want restrictions and some want more limits.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What a great conversation. We are out of time. Thank you all and thank you for watching. Chuck Todd will be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.