Latest Hipkins v Luxon debate: Former Cabinet ministers' verdicts

September 28, 2023

Iain Lees-Galloway (Labour) and Wayne Mapp (National) agreed Hipkins was unlikely to remain PM after election day.

Two former Cabinet ministers have given their verdicts after last night's Newshub leaders' debate, with both giving Labour leader Chris Hipkins credit but projecting a loss for his party in the upcoming election.

Iain Lees-Galloway (Labour) and Wayne Mapp (National) joined Breakfast this morning to discuss the debate.

Asked whether Luxon or Hipkins won last night, Lees-Galloway said: "Hands down Chris Hipkins.

"I don't come along to these things just to boost my own team, but it was a tremendous performance by Chris Hipkins.

"He'll be really happy that he's really kind of injected himself back into the campaign. Easy winner on the night."

Mapp appeared to agree that Hipkins came out on top.

"It was a close points win but they both stepped up," he said. "It might arrest the decline for Labour, that's the best it'll do.

"They are only just over two weeks away [from election day on October 14] so clearly they're gonna bring more energy, they both realised that before the debate and it was a better debate for it. But debates don't really change election dynamics."

It comes after Hipkins faced criticism for not bringing enough "fight" or "mongrel" to the first TVNZ Leaders' Debate.

National leader Christopher Luxon wasn't exempt either, with experts dubbing the first clash "beige".

"They're already set in place, we've seen that with the polls over the last several months," Mapp said.

"It's a 10-point gap for heaven's sake, that's not going to reverse in the next two weeks, absolutely no way."

Recent polling has shown a path to power for either a National-ACT or National-ACT-NZ First government.

Last night's 1News Verian Poll saw New Zealand First strengthening its chances of taking a place in the next government.

Lees-Galloway conceded anyone who bet on a big turnaround would have to be "pretty brave".

"All the polls do appear to be heading towards a National-ACT-NZ First government," he said.

"I think what we saw last night with how easy it was for Chris Hipkins to run rings around Christopher Luxon is that it is going to be a pretty shambolic government when you've got Winston Peters and David Seymour running rings around Christopher Luxon.

"[Luxon] won't have a hope of holding those two men to account and keeping them under control in his government.

"It's gonna be a challenging three years for New Zealand with those three in charge."

Too little, too late?

National's Simeon Brown and Labour's Tangi Utikere joined Breakfast as election day creeps closer.

National MP Simeon Brown and Labour MP Tangi Utikere also joined Breakfast to discuss the debate.

Utikere rejected the idea Hipkins' performance was too little, too late.

"We've got a wee bit of time in this campaign," he said. "It was a sterling performance by the prime minister last night."

Brown disagreed, arguing Luxon came out on top: "He looked like a prime minister.

"We've got two weeks to go, this country's in a terrible state, and we need a change of government."

The pair were asked about New Zealand First and Winston Peters.

Last night, when asked if Peters is good or bad for the country, Hipkins simply replied that he is bad. Luxon replied: "I don't know him."

Brown said Luxon was trying to make the point that he hadn't worked in Parliament with Peters, while Utikere argued that he'd been in Parliament the same amount of time as Luxon but he knew who Peters is.

The two parties' economic plans also came under scrutiny, with Brown criticising a perceived "spendathon" by Labour's finance spokesperson Grant Robertson and promising National's fiscal policy would be announced tomorrow.

Utikere said National's fiscal policy should have been announced before voting opened.

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