After having done the deep dive into Bad Eschatology, I find myself shocked at how man-centered our faith has become. We no longer want to know what God says. We just want to know what other men say. When was the last time your pastor prepared a sermon without consulting a book written by some dead guy?
John, Can you produce a definite Scripture verse or passage that tells us specifically that the 'Torah' has been abolished?? If you can, then your bible is different to mine. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I do not follow the Torah as such however the Lord has been challenging me on the subject over the past 2 years. This year I really honed in on what Jesus actually taught & no where did He or Paul as I am now in Romans say that the law was abolished!! In fact, the law came long before Moses gave it at Sinai. It was verbal up until that time, written on man's hearts. They knew when they were doing right or wrong according to God's wishes. By writing it down on tablets of stone it was now a Statement, written down. Jesus is the Word of God, so God spoke & wrote the Words Himself. Also God said that these words would not pass away, they were eternal. Jesus himself said that He didn't come to abolish the law but in fact, to fulfill it. I am sorry but the horse is Jesus & the cart being pulled is the law. The law was written into our hearts & we keep them as in Thou shalt love the Lord your God... and your neighbour as yourself... The 10 laws are summarized into the two but we are still to keep them.
Romans chp 7:22 Paul says, For I delight in the law of God in my inner being. So yes, we naturally keep the law as the cart that follows the horse. We don't put the cart before the horse as a number of people these days have fallen into the trap of doing. As far as the rest of the laws in Leviticus, my cousin has been studying the Hebrew in this book & he says it all points to Christ & he came away incredibly moved by the Hebrew. He points out that if we love Christ we will keep these laws as they were made to keep the people safe - they were made out of God's love for his people to protect them from diseases etc. I also read elsewhere just recently that linen & wool both have the same signature frequency. The human signal is 100 in a healthy person. Organic cotton is the same, 100. Linen & wool both register at 5,000 & cancel one another out if worn together or mixed as a thread. So a linen shirt covered by a woolen jacket is not advisable. Also wool flows from left to right & linen from right to left. Both on their own are super fabrics & give off health & well being but put together make one sick. This was all done by a Jewish doctor scientifically. I had heard of this a few years ago & it doesn't surprise me because our bodies are electrical. One reason why I always felt better walking around bare footed but can't these days & miss it as I lived in bare feet for 70 years of my life.
I have been praying & asking the Lord for three years now for understanding of the verse in Jeremiah 6: 16 & finally this year I believe He has given me the answer. The old or ancient path is following His decrees, laws, commandments etc. from the Tanakh, that He has never abolished. This year I noted in my bible that over the past couple of years I have queried to the Lord about the laws He gave in Genesis through to Malachi that He called eternal & I have yet to find a Scripture that says that He has now cancelled them. I have also been questioning the Lord for possibly 5 years each time I read the Torah, what do I do with the feasts of the Lord? This year I have my answer, they are for everybody to keep as they are HIS feasts & they covered not only the children of Jacob but also the rabble that came with them out of Egypt. As well as anyone else who was in the land at the time of the feast. I also have come to realise that they are just that except for one - FEASTS - meals to be celebrated before the Lord. I can happily do that as I like special feasts which I don't get otherwise. [I am lucky to get a birthday cake that I can actually eat!! It is only since my g/granddaughter arrived that I get that so that she can blow out the candles which is fine by me!!] So basically I am being challenged by the Holy Spirit to rethink my understanding of these laws & feasts in the Torah. A reminder today was that in John's gospel chapter one tells us that Jesus is the Word & if that is true, then everything written in the Scriptures was written by Jesus as the living Word of God. So is He going to change His mind & toss things out? I hardly think so, He is God & so unchangeable. So I am being slowly forced to change my way of thinking from Marcion's belief system to God's belief system. This is my last hurdle I think. I celebrate Passover now, & just need to align myself with the other feasts as Jesus fulfilled each of the 'spring feasts' - autumn for me as I live in Australia. Now coming soon the autumn feasts for you & the spring for me.
Obviously God gave Adam laws to follow as the son's celebrated a sacrifice, Genesis 4: 3,4 then Cain killed his brother & tried to hide his deed from God. Paul seems to sum up the need for the written laws in Romans 5: 12 to bring us to Christ. It is a very confusing book but chapters 5 through to 8 so far are clear & make absolute sense. From memory I think that I end up confused again before I get to the end of the book but maybe this year the Lord will clarify things for me. I am just amazed that I have come this far in my understanding of the need for the commandments/law & the keeping of the feasts as I had always been taught that Christ did away with the law & the feasts etc. on the cross. Traditions of man!! Here I am in my 6th year of reading the Tanakh & I am turning 180 degrees from my original belief system. The verse in the NT that has haunted me this year was Jesus saying many are called but few are chosen. I wish to be one of the chosen & if it means following the laws that Jesus said he came to fulfill then I will willingly do so. Blessings
Galatians 5 clearly shows that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial elements of the Law. That means we no longer need to observer circumcision, Shabbat or any other ritual outlined in Torah.
So then what is the spiritual law that we are to keep??
I am told in Romans 7:12 that the law is holy & righteous and good. So which law is this?
7: 14 for we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh sold under sin.
But I know that I am free from the law of sin & death because of 6: 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. Yes, I know & understand this.
Paul also states in Romans 3:30 since God is one - who will justify the circumcised BY faith & the uncircumcised THROUGH faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
So my question arises from the fact that Paul totally confuses me. So what law am I keeping once I walk through baptism into Christ's death? What I am seeing is that Christ comes first, followed by the law. What constitutes this law?? The ten commandments? The rest of the laws in Leviticus that God gives are just commands made by God out of love to protect the people from disease & are commonsense to be honest.
However, when reading the gospels I see Jesus blasting the pharisees etc for adding to God's commandments with man made laws that put an intolerable burden on the people's shoulders than no one can keep. These laws are MAN'S LAWS. Jesus said to come unto Him & our burdens would be light. Keeping the laws in Leviticus are light, they bring health & wholeness to the body when followed. The laws that Jesus broke were not God's laws at all, quite the contrary, He kept them & lived by them & so fulfilled them.
I am a gentile by birth & so according to Paul in Romans 3:30 I am to come to Jesus through faith & have done this as I was then baptized into his death & resurrection, so I assume I am keeping the commandments of the Lord which are holy by my daily sanctification, that is living in repentance each day, not going out of my way to live the life I once lived before I came to Christ. So in other words is that keeping the spiritual law?? That it is something we automatically keep once we come to Jesus through faith in His ability to save us from the penalty of the law of sin & death that we once lived under. As I said, I find Paul hard to follow. I no sooner think I have understood it, then he throws another curved ball & I am confused again. I had hoped that by using a modern translation it would make it easier to understand but every year I get to Romans & I feel like I am walking through a quagmire yet again or a minefield if you like. I agree wholeheartedly with Peter - Paul is confusing!! He just doesn't have the simple way of explaining things at all. No wonder if you put three Jewish people in a room together; that they come out with at least 5 if not more explanations of the text.
To simplify the issue, divide the question into two groups:
Laws that govern morality
Laws that govern ceremony.
Any ritual observance is ceremony. For instance, Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ceremonial laws that we we are commanded to obey. The other word that we might use is 'sacraments'.
There are 613 laws in Torah. Only about nine of them are explicitly moral code. Although the laws governing criminal activity sit somewhere in the middle.
The moral law - love God, be honest, love your neighbor, etc. - have always applied throughout history and still apply today. And, we can't even keep those laws properly.
That is NOT the core problem. It's the blatant corruption of the word אל (ehl). It means 'to', and always means 'to'. It does not mean 'against'.
Sorry, but the reference to תשוקה (t'shoo-kah) does not compute. The word means desire and passion. It is stretching things to claim that the meaning is 'beastly'. Furthermore, the word is used in the Song of Songs 7:10.
Surely you won't say that Solomon didn't understand the word?
Furthermore, there are cognates of that word that are in daily use in Israel. It is literally impossible to claim that there is any connotation that indicates 'contrary'.
Remember that I'm a Hebrew speaker. I understand these words. This corruption of the scriptures can only be considered an abomination. And all who participated in this are literally cursed by God.
I'm glad that you do not take my word for things, and look into them yourself. And, don't be bothered if I get all blustery. My bark is far worse than my bite.
If you have the time, try learning modern Hebrew. It's a somewhat simpler version of Ancient Hebrew, but retains the rhythm and structure that you find in the Bible.
I have found it to be extremely useful in situations like this.
The problem with this argument is that Jesus and the disciples exclusively used immersion in water. There are no other uses for the the Greek word used - except the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, which we have no control over.
Therefore, Jesus must have been referring to immersion into water, not anything else.
As to the difference between baptizing someone in the name of Jesus vs the Father, Son and Holy Ghost - we only have conjecture. And, I am not willing to play around with that. Especially, since it appears to be a distinction without a difference.
Again, our safety is in staying within the boundaries laid out by the Bible. We have seen what happens to those who play around with those boundaries. I do not want to wind up on the same path as the Roman Catholic Church, the majority of Protestants or the many churches that have corrupted themselves.
John, Can you produce a definite Scripture verse or passage that tells us specifically that the 'Torah' has been abolished?? If you can, then your bible is different to mine. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I do not follow the Torah as such however the Lord has been challenging me on the subject over the past 2 years. This year I really honed in on what Jesus actually taught & no where did He or Paul as I am now in Romans say that the law was abolished!! In fact, the law came long before Moses gave it at Sinai. It was verbal up until that time, written on man's hearts. They knew when they were doing right or wrong according to God's wishes. By writing it down on tablets of stone it was now a Statement, written down. Jesus is the Word of God, so God spoke & wrote the Words Himself. Also God said that these words would not pass away, they were eternal. Jesus himself said that He didn't come to abolish the law but in fact, to fulfill it. I am sorry but the horse is Jesus & the cart being pulled is the law. The law was written into our hearts & we keep them as in Thou shalt love the Lord your God... and your neighbour as yourself... The 10 laws are summarized into the two but we are still to keep them.
Romans chp 7:22 Paul says, For I delight in the law of God in my inner being. So yes, we naturally keep the law as the cart that follows the horse. We don't put the cart before the horse as a number of people these days have fallen into the trap of doing. As far as the rest of the laws in Leviticus, my cousin has been studying the Hebrew in this book & he says it all points to Christ & he came away incredibly moved by the Hebrew. He points out that if we love Christ we will keep these laws as they were made to keep the people safe - they were made out of God's love for his people to protect them from diseases etc. I also read elsewhere just recently that linen & wool both have the same signature frequency. The human signal is 100 in a healthy person. Organic cotton is the same, 100. Linen & wool both register at 5,000 & cancel one another out if worn together or mixed as a thread. So a linen shirt covered by a woolen jacket is not advisable. Also wool flows from left to right & linen from right to left. Both on their own are super fabrics & give off health & well being but put together make one sick. This was all done by a Jewish doctor scientifically. I had heard of this a few years ago & it doesn't surprise me because our bodies are electrical. One reason why I always felt better walking around bare footed but can't these days & miss it as I lived in bare feet for 70 years of my life.
I have been praying & asking the Lord for three years now for understanding of the verse in Jeremiah 6: 16 & finally this year I believe He has given me the answer. The old or ancient path is following His decrees, laws, commandments etc. from the Tanakh, that He has never abolished. This year I noted in my bible that over the past couple of years I have queried to the Lord about the laws He gave in Genesis through to Malachi that He called eternal & I have yet to find a Scripture that says that He has now cancelled them. I have also been questioning the Lord for possibly 5 years each time I read the Torah, what do I do with the feasts of the Lord? This year I have my answer, they are for everybody to keep as they are HIS feasts & they covered not only the children of Jacob but also the rabble that came with them out of Egypt. As well as anyone else who was in the land at the time of the feast. I also have come to realise that they are just that except for one - FEASTS - meals to be celebrated before the Lord. I can happily do that as I like special feasts which I don't get otherwise. [I am lucky to get a birthday cake that I can actually eat!! It is only since my g/granddaughter arrived that I get that so that she can blow out the candles which is fine by me!!] So basically I am being challenged by the Holy Spirit to rethink my understanding of these laws & feasts in the Torah. A reminder today was that in John's gospel chapter one tells us that Jesus is the Word & if that is true, then everything written in the Scriptures was written by Jesus as the living Word of God. So is He going to change His mind & toss things out? I hardly think so, He is God & so unchangeable. So I am being slowly forced to change my way of thinking from Marcion's belief system to God's belief system. This is my last hurdle I think. I celebrate Passover now, & just need to align myself with the other feasts as Jesus fulfilled each of the 'spring feasts' - autumn for me as I live in Australia. Now coming soon the autumn feasts for you & the spring for me.
Obviously God gave Adam laws to follow as the son's celebrated a sacrifice, Genesis 4: 3,4 then Cain killed his brother & tried to hide his deed from God. Paul seems to sum up the need for the written laws in Romans 5: 12 to bring us to Christ. It is a very confusing book but chapters 5 through to 8 so far are clear & make absolute sense. From memory I think that I end up confused again before I get to the end of the book but maybe this year the Lord will clarify things for me. I am just amazed that I have come this far in my understanding of the need for the commandments/law & the keeping of the feasts as I had always been taught that Christ did away with the law & the feasts etc. on the cross. Traditions of man!! Here I am in my 6th year of reading the Tanakh & I am turning 180 degrees from my original belief system. The verse in the NT that has haunted me this year was Jesus saying many are called but few are chosen. I wish to be one of the chosen & if it means following the laws that Jesus said he came to fulfill then I will willingly do so. Blessings
Galatians 5 clearly shows that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial elements of the Law. That means we no longer need to observer circumcision, Shabbat or any other ritual outlined in Torah.
Here, read this:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NKJV
It cannot be clearer than that.
So then what is the spiritual law that we are to keep??
I am told in Romans 7:12 that the law is holy & righteous and good. So which law is this?
7: 14 for we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh sold under sin.
But I know that I am free from the law of sin & death because of 6: 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. Yes, I know & understand this.
Paul also states in Romans 3:30 since God is one - who will justify the circumcised BY faith & the uncircumcised THROUGH faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
So my question arises from the fact that Paul totally confuses me. So what law am I keeping once I walk through baptism into Christ's death? What I am seeing is that Christ comes first, followed by the law. What constitutes this law?? The ten commandments? The rest of the laws in Leviticus that God gives are just commands made by God out of love to protect the people from disease & are commonsense to be honest.
However, when reading the gospels I see Jesus blasting the pharisees etc for adding to God's commandments with man made laws that put an intolerable burden on the people's shoulders than no one can keep. These laws are MAN'S LAWS. Jesus said to come unto Him & our burdens would be light. Keeping the laws in Leviticus are light, they bring health & wholeness to the body when followed. The laws that Jesus broke were not God's laws at all, quite the contrary, He kept them & lived by them & so fulfilled them.
I am a gentile by birth & so according to Paul in Romans 3:30 I am to come to Jesus through faith & have done this as I was then baptized into his death & resurrection, so I assume I am keeping the commandments of the Lord which are holy by my daily sanctification, that is living in repentance each day, not going out of my way to live the life I once lived before I came to Christ. So in other words is that keeping the spiritual law?? That it is something we automatically keep once we come to Jesus through faith in His ability to save us from the penalty of the law of sin & death that we once lived under. As I said, I find Paul hard to follow. I no sooner think I have understood it, then he throws another curved ball & I am confused again. I had hoped that by using a modern translation it would make it easier to understand but every year I get to Romans & I feel like I am walking through a quagmire yet again or a minefield if you like. I agree wholeheartedly with Peter - Paul is confusing!! He just doesn't have the simple way of explaining things at all. No wonder if you put three Jewish people in a room together; that they come out with at least 5 if not more explanations of the text.
To simplify the issue, divide the question into two groups:
Laws that govern morality
Laws that govern ceremony.
Any ritual observance is ceremony. For instance, Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ceremonial laws that we we are commanded to obey. The other word that we might use is 'sacraments'.
There are 613 laws in Torah. Only about nine of them are explicitly moral code. Although the laws governing criminal activity sit somewhere in the middle.
The moral law - love God, be honest, love your neighbor, etc. - have always applied throughout history and still apply today. And, we can't even keep those laws properly.
I hope that helps.
John Little
Revelation Six
That is NOT the core problem. It's the blatant corruption of the word אל (ehl). It means 'to', and always means 'to'. It does not mean 'against'.
Sorry, but the reference to תשוקה (t'shoo-kah) does not compute. The word means desire and passion. It is stretching things to claim that the meaning is 'beastly'. Furthermore, the word is used in the Song of Songs 7:10.
Surely you won't say that Solomon didn't understand the word?
Furthermore, there are cognates of that word that are in daily use in Israel. It is literally impossible to claim that there is any connotation that indicates 'contrary'.
Remember that I'm a Hebrew speaker. I understand these words. This corruption of the scriptures can only be considered an abomination. And all who participated in this are literally cursed by God.
I'm glad that you do not take my word for things, and look into them yourself. And, don't be bothered if I get all blustery. My bark is far worse than my bite.
If you have the time, try learning modern Hebrew. It's a somewhat simpler version of Ancient Hebrew, but retains the rhythm and structure that you find in the Bible.
I have found it to be extremely useful in situations like this.
You forgot something.
We are commanded - and yes, the word is commanded - by Jesus Christ Himself, that we are to Baptize. We are commanded to immerse. (Matthew 28:19)
If we are not willing to obey a direct command from our Lord and Savior, how can we call ourselves Christians?
Seriously, it's a command. Not a suggestion.
The problem with this argument is that Jesus and the disciples exclusively used immersion in water. There are no other uses for the the Greek word used - except the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, which we have no control over.
Therefore, Jesus must have been referring to immersion into water, not anything else.
As to the difference between baptizing someone in the name of Jesus vs the Father, Son and Holy Ghost - we only have conjecture. And, I am not willing to play around with that. Especially, since it appears to be a distinction without a difference.
Again, our safety is in staying within the boundaries laid out by the Bible. We have seen what happens to those who play around with those boundaries. I do not want to wind up on the same path as the Roman Catholic Church, the majority of Protestants or the many churches that have corrupted themselves.
Keep up the good work, Anthony!
- JL